Let's talk flooring!
Balanced Construction of Engineered Hardwood
You've all probably heard about unbalanced construction of hardwood flooring ie; too thick of a surface veneer as compared to the sub ply construction.
For years it seem to be a competition of manufactures to get more sub plys under the surface plys theoretically make the product more stable. There are three ply to nine plys out there.
New supposed theory's and tests seem to confirm that too thick a veneer is much like having a solid glued to plywood according to the "experts". I seriously doubt this and have never yet seen any problem of which these hardwood experts claim is going on, least in my zone. To think a 3/16 in or even a 1/14 in veneer is going to act like a 3/4 inch solid seems ludicrous to me, unless the sub-plys are some really ridiculously unstable wood other than whats on top.
I am just wondering if it is such a problem when are the manufactures going to jump on this bandwagon as I have yet to see thicker balanced sub plys matching the thicker surface veneers. I still dont see any matching sub plys yet.
For years it seem to be a competition of manufactures to get more sub plys under the surface plys theoretically make the product more stable. There are three ply to nine plys out there.
New supposed theory's and tests seem to confirm that too thick a veneer is much like having a solid glued to plywood according to the "experts". I seriously doubt this and have never yet seen any problem of which these hardwood experts claim is going on, least in my zone. To think a 3/16 in or even a 1/14 in veneer is going to act like a 3/4 inch solid seems ludicrous to me, unless the sub-plys are some really ridiculously unstable wood other than whats on top.
I am just wondering if it is such a problem when are the manufactures going to jump on this bandwagon as I have yet to see thicker balanced sub plys matching the thicker surface veneers. I still dont see any matching sub plys yet.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jerome on -
I'm inclined to think that the term "balanced" has more to do with the top and bottom layer being equal. As far as the thickness of the top layer on an engineered wood .... I think it is possible to go too thick with that. You've heard the term dry cupping.... it's where the top layer gets exposed to a very dry climate and will start to shrink..... what the top layer is glued to does not shrink because it is usually a different material and is cross plied,. The thicker the top layer is the stronger effect it can have on the second layer.
My view of this is the less plys the better and the plys are hardwood instead of a fill material or a softwood. I see this mentioned on Listserv frequently and I have always thought the same way.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on -
Yes Jerry, we have all heard dry dupping, I've see it on thin veneers as well but not so much thicker ones. Dry cupping out here is just a given.
I've also seen it written in the woodbook as well. But where is the data, the science instead of a mere sentence or so here and there? And why haven't the manufactures jumped on the bandwagon if these so called experts are correct? They all have...well most have some pretty decent labs.
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Permalink Reply by Jerome on
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Stephen, if you'd ever join the NWFA for one year and get on Listserv you would see that the manufacturers do have data and have been running test in environmental chambers. That is where i have been reading about this dry cupping problem in certain parts of the country. Listserv is a private messaging service so I cannot divulge too much of what i have been reading there.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Oh, more top secret hush hush R&D on hardwood lol
OK Jerry, say they have this data, I don't doubt there is some, like I said they have labs.
I have yet to see anything in writing, a paper of sorts on it. Have you seen the data or is someone just verbally telling everyone on listserv?
If it is as you say, then why have I not seen much if any change to balanced thicker engineered products? I still just see paper thin plys.
And to what degree does this extra movement start to happen? 1mm...2mm...10mm?
Its pretty funny that I have some floors with 3/16 to 1/4 inch veneers all over town that have no problems what so ever. As a matter of fact I have some in my house.
Perhaps its just the funky adhesive used in imported goods. Or using softer woods in the plys. This and the dry cupping is not new science or fact. I could point you to several articles and papers on them.
Here's some skinny on manufacturing in China. When the CEO and exec's from America leave, they immediately change out the adhesive. I friend was talking to his buddy a manufacture in China, his daughter went there to set it up. After leaving they noticed a change in quality, had it analyzed, came to find out the switch to cheaper adhesives. She is still there eight years.
Shhhh dont tell anyone its a secret.
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Permalink Reply by Chuck Coffer on -
Jerry,
You understand. Give me a call and you will understand more.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Yes Jerry, by all means listen to the glue salesman. I believe everything I hear from him thats for sure.
Do manufactures have wood experts in their labs? I bet not, all they have to do is go online to the listserv and get all the answers.
The big chief of the NWFA stated in a symposium that there is no way to calculate the original width of hardwood planks after its installed. I believe him as much as satan.
All bow for to Big Bruce.
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Permalink Reply by barrycarlton on -
Wine, do you mean vinier??
veneer is a verb meaning 'to come, or are coming' in french.
b
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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It's ply's...plywood. Only the top is a veneer if its cabinet or flooring grade, yes?
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Reply by Johnny 1 hour ago
Dry cupping........
Maybe it's really all about the difference in wood moisture content upon manufacturing.
The core is either higher, or lower, in moisture content than the top ply/venner. Usually, we see cupped engineered due to delamination caused by shrinking of the core due to the high wood moisture content of the core during manufacturing.
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And I thought it was due to the surface being drier than the bottom....bottom being influenced by higher mositure levels of the substrate.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Grumpy, who you talking to....better not be me. :)
Johnny, are you speaking during manufacturing or after installation?
Ya'll better read up ifin your going out doing inspections.
Dude, I was a member so long ago I forgot I was a member. ha ha
http://www.apawood.org/level_b.cfm?content=pub_main
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