Let's talk flooring!
freaking idiots?
Ok,
please read the trash below, and the complete ignorance of these people actually out doing inspections!
hell, they don't have a clue!
what the hell is laminated vertical hardwood? just start reading, they and, get this, this is from a so call professional service site,,,,gee, I would be ashamed to post at such a site where such people post their work, but, more important and frightening is, the harm they cause people, the complete disregard they have to the consequences their actions, they lack of knowledge, have on people who lived this work, I mean, this shows a complete "me only", disregard for the working people who do the work, no measurements, nothing, they are completely without regard to the consequences to the people who did the work their ignorant report will have.
Msg# Title - Reply Below to msg#545 [Exit] Originated 10/29/09
545 Engineered wood gapping flooringinspections@yahoo.com
I inspected a floor for an upcoming court case. Butt seam gapping 1/16" to almost 1/8" on several boards just in one section. Was gapped like that at the installation. The installers agree they installed it like that, but that it is acceptable. Is there an industry standard for max gapping? Where do I find it if there is?
Replys: From
I have installed for many years and never heard of any acceptable gapping left by an installer. Even NWFA is vague with gap tolerances caused by changes in RH. I am glad I am not that installer, I think he will be at least replacing part of that job. donsgroi@gmail.com
10/29/09
They are abnormal gaps that do not open and close seasonally. NWFA Problems, causes and cures, abnormal gaps, I think page 10. INSPECCPT@AOL.COM
10/30/09
Thanks for the replies. I need to get with NWFA I think. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/30/09
Sorry INSPECCPT...this is not abnormal gapping as in panelization or side bonding. These were gaps left by the installers.Is this a nail or glue down product? SLKMCS@COMCAST.NET
10/30/09
Glue down over an on-grade concrete slab. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/30/09
They were left at installation I agree, so does the installer. Do they close, No. They shouldn’t be there, I hope you would agree. The question is: the installer said he left them and they were OK. One way to say / explain that they are not OK is to use the Abnormal Gaps from the NWFA. Please read all the info under Gaps, Abnormal. INSPECCPT@AOL.COM
10/31/09
Whoa big fella. Glue down!!! Sliding boards into the adhesive instead of placing them in the adhesive. The adhesive pushes the boards back, leaving a gap at the ends. SLKMCS@COMCAST.NET
11/02/09
Still installation related. If they don’t close during humid season, they are abnormal. NWFA does not mention much more except evaluate from a standing position. Gaps of .016’ are not remarkable from a standing position. Since I can’t see anyway, I use .020" as my guide for unremarkable gaps. insp115@aol.com
11/02/09
Interestingly, there are or were a product that will shrink in the length like that. I had one floor installed as a glue down on wood three x’s doing the same thing each time. floorcovering@cox.net
11/03/09
I have seen it happen when using an inexpensive acrylic (water) based adhesive. The board swells from moisture absorbed from the adhesive, over time it looses that moisture and shrinks to normal size, leaving a gap. rgfloor@sssnet.com
11/03/09
This does not sound like a product issue since the installer admitted to installing with gaps. I think a FEW gaps of up to 1/16" or .060" should be considered acceptable, if they are filled. The manufacturers allow themselves 5%. The installer should not have to deliver 100% perfect. Stain and putty are a normal part of any hardwood floor installation. djhoran@comcast.net
11/03/09
- Reply here to msg #545 [ Close Window ]
Msg# Title - Reply Below to msg#540 [Exit] Originated 10/08/09
540 Finger-jointed solid hardwood flooringinspections@yahoo.com
I didn’t even know this existed until a few days ago!!?? Not really "solid" I guess. What would cause 20% of the installed boards to start splitting along the "joint" lines, starting at the ends? This is nail down over wood subfloor in a new construction home; the wood is really wet-measuring 14% to 16%.
Replys: From
What did the substrate (that it was attached to)meter for moisture content? Do you have EMC?? floorcovering@cox.net
10/08/09
I was unable to measure the moisture in the substrate which is typical. Short of removing flooring, how do you measure moisture in the subfloor? What does EMC mean? flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
The flooring is a four-strip finger jointed material. It had a higher moisture when installed than does now (as measured by gapping and 10 across width). Is there anything the installer did or site condtions that would cause the splitting, or is it manufacturer related-perhaps from moisture imbalance between joined section, causing stress as they dry down to normal moisture levels? flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
Maybe to your questions...but first, you must review EMC or Equal Moisture Content....take moisture readings of the baseboard, joists from under the home, or any common wood cloose to the or attached to the flooring. What did an extra of wood meter? Was the material wrapped in plastic in the box, was it opened and material acclimated? Improper nailing? Measurement of the tongue and groove to standard? I take it that spitting is on the tongue only? e-mail me floorcovering@cox.net
10/09/09
My mistake; I guess this is called vertical laminated solid hardwood. The splitting is along the glue lines between glued sections/strips. As far as the moisture questions-can improper acclimation cause splitting along the glue lines?? How is that possible? Whether the flooring is first acclimated properly in unsealed cartons, or is nailed down and then acclimates to the home environment, what difference would that make on splitting at the glue lines? The tongues have no splitting. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
I would be more concerned with if the home was enclosed when the floor went down. The cause of the cracks at the joints is the high moisture. No way that it left the mill at that high numbers. This has to be site or storage related to cause such a high moisture content. donsgroi@gmail.com
10/09/09
Okay, but I’ve seen a number of wood floors with similar high moisture readings, especially where one board is 12% and the adjacent one is 15%, and the overall average was maybe 13 or 14%. And this has been increasing for me over the last year or so. I think some of the manufacturers are not taking the time to dry down the wood properly before shipping. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
^^^Did you get these readings from uninstalled or installed planks. You have no way to verify what they were dried at since you were not there. They can pick up moisture once they leave the manufacturer from any number of places. You can measure substrate if it is wood if you have a hammer probe. If not, pin it, drive nails into the pin holes until you feel them go into the sub floor & pin the nails. sjohnston1@triad.rr.com
10/09/09
please read the trash below, and the complete ignorance of these people actually out doing inspections!
hell, they don't have a clue!
what the hell is laminated vertical hardwood? just start reading, they and, get this, this is from a so call professional service site,,,,gee, I would be ashamed to post at such a site where such people post their work, but, more important and frightening is, the harm they cause people, the complete disregard they have to the consequences their actions, they lack of knowledge, have on people who lived this work, I mean, this shows a complete "me only", disregard for the working people who do the work, no measurements, nothing, they are completely without regard to the consequences to the people who did the work their ignorant report will have.
Msg# Title - Reply Below to msg#545 [Exit] Originated 10/29/09
545 Engineered wood gapping flooringinspections@yahoo.com
I inspected a floor for an upcoming court case. Butt seam gapping 1/16" to almost 1/8" on several boards just in one section. Was gapped like that at the installation. The installers agree they installed it like that, but that it is acceptable. Is there an industry standard for max gapping? Where do I find it if there is?
Replys: From
I have installed for many years and never heard of any acceptable gapping left by an installer. Even NWFA is vague with gap tolerances caused by changes in RH. I am glad I am not that installer, I think he will be at least replacing part of that job. donsgroi@gmail.com
10/29/09
They are abnormal gaps that do not open and close seasonally. NWFA Problems, causes and cures, abnormal gaps, I think page 10. INSPECCPT@AOL.COM
10/30/09
Thanks for the replies. I need to get with NWFA I think. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/30/09
Sorry INSPECCPT...this is not abnormal gapping as in panelization or side bonding. These were gaps left by the installers.Is this a nail or glue down product? SLKMCS@COMCAST.NET
10/30/09
Glue down over an on-grade concrete slab. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/30/09
They were left at installation I agree, so does the installer. Do they close, No. They shouldn’t be there, I hope you would agree. The question is: the installer said he left them and they were OK. One way to say / explain that they are not OK is to use the Abnormal Gaps from the NWFA. Please read all the info under Gaps, Abnormal. INSPECCPT@AOL.COM
10/31/09
Whoa big fella. Glue down!!! Sliding boards into the adhesive instead of placing them in the adhesive. The adhesive pushes the boards back, leaving a gap at the ends. SLKMCS@COMCAST.NET
11/02/09
Still installation related. If they don’t close during humid season, they are abnormal. NWFA does not mention much more except evaluate from a standing position. Gaps of .016’ are not remarkable from a standing position. Since I can’t see anyway, I use .020" as my guide for unremarkable gaps. insp115@aol.com
11/02/09
Interestingly, there are or were a product that will shrink in the length like that. I had one floor installed as a glue down on wood three x’s doing the same thing each time. floorcovering@cox.net
11/03/09
I have seen it happen when using an inexpensive acrylic (water) based adhesive. The board swells from moisture absorbed from the adhesive, over time it looses that moisture and shrinks to normal size, leaving a gap. rgfloor@sssnet.com
11/03/09
This does not sound like a product issue since the installer admitted to installing with gaps. I think a FEW gaps of up to 1/16" or .060" should be considered acceptable, if they are filled. The manufacturers allow themselves 5%. The installer should not have to deliver 100% perfect. Stain and putty are a normal part of any hardwood floor installation. djhoran@comcast.net
11/03/09
- Reply here to msg #545 [ Close Window ]
Msg# Title - Reply Below to msg#540 [Exit] Originated 10/08/09
540 Finger-jointed solid hardwood flooringinspections@yahoo.com
I didn’t even know this existed until a few days ago!!?? Not really "solid" I guess. What would cause 20% of the installed boards to start splitting along the "joint" lines, starting at the ends? This is nail down over wood subfloor in a new construction home; the wood is really wet-measuring 14% to 16%.
Replys: From
What did the substrate (that it was attached to)meter for moisture content? Do you have EMC?? floorcovering@cox.net
10/08/09
I was unable to measure the moisture in the substrate which is typical. Short of removing flooring, how do you measure moisture in the subfloor? What does EMC mean? flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
The flooring is a four-strip finger jointed material. It had a higher moisture when installed than does now (as measured by gapping and 10 across width). Is there anything the installer did or site condtions that would cause the splitting, or is it manufacturer related-perhaps from moisture imbalance between joined section, causing stress as they dry down to normal moisture levels? flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
Maybe to your questions...but first, you must review EMC or Equal Moisture Content....take moisture readings of the baseboard, joists from under the home, or any common wood cloose to the or attached to the flooring. What did an extra of wood meter? Was the material wrapped in plastic in the box, was it opened and material acclimated? Improper nailing? Measurement of the tongue and groove to standard? I take it that spitting is on the tongue only? e-mail me floorcovering@cox.net
10/09/09
My mistake; I guess this is called vertical laminated solid hardwood. The splitting is along the glue lines between glued sections/strips. As far as the moisture questions-can improper acclimation cause splitting along the glue lines?? How is that possible? Whether the flooring is first acclimated properly in unsealed cartons, or is nailed down and then acclimates to the home environment, what difference would that make on splitting at the glue lines? The tongues have no splitting. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
I would be more concerned with if the home was enclosed when the floor went down. The cause of the cracks at the joints is the high moisture. No way that it left the mill at that high numbers. This has to be site or storage related to cause such a high moisture content. donsgroi@gmail.com
10/09/09
Okay, but I’ve seen a number of wood floors with similar high moisture readings, especially where one board is 12% and the adjacent one is 15%, and the overall average was maybe 13 or 14%. And this has been increasing for me over the last year or so. I think some of the manufacturers are not taking the time to dry down the wood properly before shipping. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
^^^Did you get these readings from uninstalled or installed planks. You have no way to verify what they were dried at since you were not there. They can pick up moisture once they leave the manufacturer from any number of places. You can measure substrate if it is wood if you have a hammer probe. If not, pin it, drive nails into the pin holes until you feel them go into the sub floor & pin the nails. sjohnston1@triad.rr.com
10/09/09
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on -
are you sure?
what I don't see is any data, per-tain-tent to the claims,
I don't see data, simple, where is the data? or is the info?
they are inspecting by just "saying it is so"??? so, what is it? support it,
so, lets start at the beginning,
"The installers agree they installed it like that, but that it is acceptable. Is there an industry standard for max gapping? Where do I find it if there is?"
Since 1988 I have never had any installer tell me they "installed it like that" and it is acceptable,,,,,maybe something happen latter that made it acceptable but, I have never, ever, had an installer say that to me,
makes me wonder, if he is repeating what the homeowner said, which has been changed or altered to fit his conceptions and floor replacement,,,
anyone here would ever say something like that? think hard?
so, is the opening statement believable or not? and please note, he did not say he interviewed the installer, just a general statement,,,and, sounds pretty general to me,
after this opening, look at some more, and start thinking, what data is reported, sounds he only interviewed the homeowner to me, and is trying to write a report off that only,
bad bad bad bad bad, I want to meet the installers who would say something like that about their work,
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on
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"They are abnormal gaps that do not open and close seasonally. NWFA Problems, causes and cures, abnormal gaps, I think page 10."
Now, is this a standard for solid or engineered? so, just wondering.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on -
Putty is your buddy on prefinished lol I heard that today from an armstrong tech guy on a webinar.
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on
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putty is acceptable,
where are the measurements? where are the measurements?where are the measurements? where are the measurements?where are the measurements?where are the measurements?where are the measurements?where are the measurements?where are the measurements?
YOU KNOW, THE MEASUREMENTS! YOU KNOW, TAKING THE TIME TO DO THE JOB!
YOU KNOW, KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND TALKING ABOUT!
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Quote: I was unable to measure the moisture in the substrate which is typical. Short of removing flooring, how do you measure moisture in the subfloor? What does EMC mean? flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
Unbelieveable!!! What is EMC? Ha ha
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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I got no book, all wood gets gaps now and then. Some manufactures state on the installation instructions of prefinished that there will be gaps, buy putty. I believe one is armstrong and bruce.
"vertical laminated solid hardwood" Love it. How did you get that? Did you hack into that website or they still let you in? You da hacker man?
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on
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someone copied it, and sent it to me,
do you think the idiot might mean,,,,, sliced quarter sawn laminated, see, not laminate, but, laminated boards, which, by the way, is the process, that is, lamination, when they press the veneers, think he knows what veneers are? into sheets.....
you know, I wonder, if he even knows any of the processes?
I will have to make sure, I put out a cd of people who have attended the universities' engineered classes this Spring,,,,,
gee, what idiots, and, I see the surfer boy is right in there in the middle of it, again, I guess working for these people is all he has anymore.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Well I think he is talking about vertical bamboo cus I don't ever see laminated vertical hardwood. lol
And not to pick on suferboy but is it called equal or equilibrium ? I bet the guy don't even know how to use the specific gravity chart. How can they send out inspectors like that who don't know nuthin about the flooring they are inspecting? It is basically fraud.
I can't tell ya the dumb questions I heard on the webinar for armstrong by inspectors. ahhhh
I don't think I was that bad was I? LOL
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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And another thing while I am on my pedestal, how come the inspection community allows this to continue? For that matter how come the manufactures allow this to continue? Manufactures have to know this is going on.
I know good inspectors make good coin going back behind these guys but really...think about it. You'd have tons of more work if they laid down the law and only allowed ppl to inspect flooring they have experience with. I mean years of experience. They should require years of installation background to start with.
This is a perfect example of how to ruin the inspection community's integrity. It gives the whole community a black eye.
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on
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"And another thing while I am on my pedestal, how come the inspection community allows this to continue? For that matter how come the manufactures allow this to continue? Manufactures have to know this is going on."
ok, how can the inspection community stop this? They have unqualified instructors, non-scientist, non-scientifici approach to investigations, no wood science knowledge, no installation experience/knowledge, teaching.
Do you want to know how mad some are at that inspector on the east coast who is arranging classes at universities,,,,I remember someone writing an article about the inspection community, and, ranting about these self-proclaimed experts who certify each other as experts,
and, if anyone does learn, the "insiders", the "inner circles", will fight them tooth and nail, without end, trying to run them out of the business, I hear, they have even called that guy on the east coast a pervert, criminal, and all kinds of unsavory things about him,,,,just because, he arranged for the truth to be taught,,,and, the associations? one told him that instructors with PhDs in wood science were not "accredited". think about that, men who work their entire lives in the industry, and in labs testing the products, are not "accredited", and all the instructors? they are, so scared they are going to be exposed but the sad truth is, they have already been exposed as, unqualified.
Now, back to this one, the man is clueless and ignorant, but, if he really cared about the quality of his work, and its effect upon those not guilty, innocence installers and homeowners, he would research and learn as I and a few others have, instead, he goes to internet closed site to the public, so the public will not know their ignorance, hoping someone will give him answers without him having to have the experience, or study, do research, nothing, you see, that site is for lazy worthless wanna bes who only care for their selfs, and, not the truth or good people, worthless wanna bes, with no class, none,
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