Let's talk flooring!
freaking idiots?
Ok,
please read the trash below, and the complete ignorance of these people actually out doing inspections!
hell, they don't have a clue!
what the hell is laminated vertical hardwood? just start reading, they and, get this, this is from a so call professional service site,,,,gee, I would be ashamed to post at such a site where such people post their work, but, more important and frightening is, the harm they cause people, the complete disregard they have to the consequences their actions, they lack of knowledge, have on people who lived this work, I mean, this shows a complete "me only", disregard for the working people who do the work, no measurements, nothing, they are completely without regard to the consequences to the people who did the work their ignorant report will have.
Msg# Title - Reply Below to msg#545 [Exit] Originated 10/29/09
545 Engineered wood gapping flooringinspections@yahoo.com
I inspected a floor for an upcoming court case. Butt seam gapping 1/16" to almost 1/8" on several boards just in one section. Was gapped like that at the installation. The installers agree they installed it like that, but that it is acceptable. Is there an industry standard for max gapping? Where do I find it if there is?
Replys: From
I have installed for many years and never heard of any acceptable gapping left by an installer. Even NWFA is vague with gap tolerances caused by changes in RH. I am glad I am not that installer, I think he will be at least replacing part of that job. donsgroi@gmail.com
10/29/09
They are abnormal gaps that do not open and close seasonally. NWFA Problems, causes and cures, abnormal gaps, I think page 10. INSPECCPT@AOL.COM
10/30/09
Thanks for the replies. I need to get with NWFA I think. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/30/09
Sorry INSPECCPT...this is not abnormal gapping as in panelization or side bonding. These were gaps left by the installers.Is this a nail or glue down product? SLKMCS@COMCAST.NET
10/30/09
Glue down over an on-grade concrete slab. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/30/09
They were left at installation I agree, so does the installer. Do they close, No. They shouldn’t be there, I hope you would agree. The question is: the installer said he left them and they were OK. One way to say / explain that they are not OK is to use the Abnormal Gaps from the NWFA. Please read all the info under Gaps, Abnormal. INSPECCPT@AOL.COM
10/31/09
Whoa big fella. Glue down!!! Sliding boards into the adhesive instead of placing them in the adhesive. The adhesive pushes the boards back, leaving a gap at the ends. SLKMCS@COMCAST.NET
11/02/09
Still installation related. If they don’t close during humid season, they are abnormal. NWFA does not mention much more except evaluate from a standing position. Gaps of .016’ are not remarkable from a standing position. Since I can’t see anyway, I use .020" as my guide for unremarkable gaps. insp115@aol.com
11/02/09
Interestingly, there are or were a product that will shrink in the length like that. I had one floor installed as a glue down on wood three x’s doing the same thing each time. floorcovering@cox.net
11/03/09
I have seen it happen when using an inexpensive acrylic (water) based adhesive. The board swells from moisture absorbed from the adhesive, over time it looses that moisture and shrinks to normal size, leaving a gap. rgfloor@sssnet.com
11/03/09
This does not sound like a product issue since the installer admitted to installing with gaps. I think a FEW gaps of up to 1/16" or .060" should be considered acceptable, if they are filled. The manufacturers allow themselves 5%. The installer should not have to deliver 100% perfect. Stain and putty are a normal part of any hardwood floor installation. djhoran@comcast.net
11/03/09
- Reply here to msg #545 [ Close Window ]
Msg# Title - Reply Below to msg#540 [Exit] Originated 10/08/09
540 Finger-jointed solid hardwood flooringinspections@yahoo.com
I didn’t even know this existed until a few days ago!!?? Not really "solid" I guess. What would cause 20% of the installed boards to start splitting along the "joint" lines, starting at the ends? This is nail down over wood subfloor in a new construction home; the wood is really wet-measuring 14% to 16%.
Replys: From
What did the substrate (that it was attached to)meter for moisture content? Do you have EMC?? floorcovering@cox.net
10/08/09
I was unable to measure the moisture in the substrate which is typical. Short of removing flooring, how do you measure moisture in the subfloor? What does EMC mean? flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
The flooring is a four-strip finger jointed material. It had a higher moisture when installed than does now (as measured by gapping and 10 across width). Is there anything the installer did or site condtions that would cause the splitting, or is it manufacturer related-perhaps from moisture imbalance between joined section, causing stress as they dry down to normal moisture levels? flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
Maybe to your questions...but first, you must review EMC or Equal Moisture Content....take moisture readings of the baseboard, joists from under the home, or any common wood cloose to the or attached to the flooring. What did an extra of wood meter? Was the material wrapped in plastic in the box, was it opened and material acclimated? Improper nailing? Measurement of the tongue and groove to standard? I take it that spitting is on the tongue only? e-mail me floorcovering@cox.net
10/09/09
My mistake; I guess this is called vertical laminated solid hardwood. The splitting is along the glue lines between glued sections/strips. As far as the moisture questions-can improper acclimation cause splitting along the glue lines?? How is that possible? Whether the flooring is first acclimated properly in unsealed cartons, or is nailed down and then acclimates to the home environment, what difference would that make on splitting at the glue lines? The tongues have no splitting. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
I would be more concerned with if the home was enclosed when the floor went down. The cause of the cracks at the joints is the high moisture. No way that it left the mill at that high numbers. This has to be site or storage related to cause such a high moisture content. donsgroi@gmail.com
10/09/09
Okay, but I’ve seen a number of wood floors with similar high moisture readings, especially where one board is 12% and the adjacent one is 15%, and the overall average was maybe 13 or 14%. And this has been increasing for me over the last year or so. I think some of the manufacturers are not taking the time to dry down the wood properly before shipping. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
^^^Did you get these readings from uninstalled or installed planks. You have no way to verify what they were dried at since you were not there. They can pick up moisture once they leave the manufacturer from any number of places. You can measure substrate if it is wood if you have a hammer probe. If not, pin it, drive nails into the pin holes until you feel them go into the sub floor & pin the nails. sjohnston1@triad.rr.com
10/09/09
please read the trash below, and the complete ignorance of these people actually out doing inspections!
hell, they don't have a clue!
what the hell is laminated vertical hardwood? just start reading, they and, get this, this is from a so call professional service site,,,,gee, I would be ashamed to post at such a site where such people post their work, but, more important and frightening is, the harm they cause people, the complete disregard they have to the consequences their actions, they lack of knowledge, have on people who lived this work, I mean, this shows a complete "me only", disregard for the working people who do the work, no measurements, nothing, they are completely without regard to the consequences to the people who did the work their ignorant report will have.
Msg# Title - Reply Below to msg#545 [Exit] Originated 10/29/09
545 Engineered wood gapping flooringinspections@yahoo.com
I inspected a floor for an upcoming court case. Butt seam gapping 1/16" to almost 1/8" on several boards just in one section. Was gapped like that at the installation. The installers agree they installed it like that, but that it is acceptable. Is there an industry standard for max gapping? Where do I find it if there is?
Replys: From
I have installed for many years and never heard of any acceptable gapping left by an installer. Even NWFA is vague with gap tolerances caused by changes in RH. I am glad I am not that installer, I think he will be at least replacing part of that job. donsgroi@gmail.com
10/29/09
They are abnormal gaps that do not open and close seasonally. NWFA Problems, causes and cures, abnormal gaps, I think page 10. INSPECCPT@AOL.COM
10/30/09
Thanks for the replies. I need to get with NWFA I think. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/30/09
Sorry INSPECCPT...this is not abnormal gapping as in panelization or side bonding. These were gaps left by the installers.Is this a nail or glue down product? SLKMCS@COMCAST.NET
10/30/09
Glue down over an on-grade concrete slab. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/30/09
They were left at installation I agree, so does the installer. Do they close, No. They shouldn’t be there, I hope you would agree. The question is: the installer said he left them and they were OK. One way to say / explain that they are not OK is to use the Abnormal Gaps from the NWFA. Please read all the info under Gaps, Abnormal. INSPECCPT@AOL.COM
10/31/09
Whoa big fella. Glue down!!! Sliding boards into the adhesive instead of placing them in the adhesive. The adhesive pushes the boards back, leaving a gap at the ends. SLKMCS@COMCAST.NET
11/02/09
Still installation related. If they don’t close during humid season, they are abnormal. NWFA does not mention much more except evaluate from a standing position. Gaps of .016’ are not remarkable from a standing position. Since I can’t see anyway, I use .020" as my guide for unremarkable gaps. insp115@aol.com
11/02/09
Interestingly, there are or were a product that will shrink in the length like that. I had one floor installed as a glue down on wood three x’s doing the same thing each time. floorcovering@cox.net
11/03/09
I have seen it happen when using an inexpensive acrylic (water) based adhesive. The board swells from moisture absorbed from the adhesive, over time it looses that moisture and shrinks to normal size, leaving a gap. rgfloor@sssnet.com
11/03/09
This does not sound like a product issue since the installer admitted to installing with gaps. I think a FEW gaps of up to 1/16" or .060" should be considered acceptable, if they are filled. The manufacturers allow themselves 5%. The installer should not have to deliver 100% perfect. Stain and putty are a normal part of any hardwood floor installation. djhoran@comcast.net
11/03/09
- Reply here to msg #545 [ Close Window ]
Msg# Title - Reply Below to msg#540 [Exit] Originated 10/08/09
540 Finger-jointed solid hardwood flooringinspections@yahoo.com
I didn’t even know this existed until a few days ago!!?? Not really "solid" I guess. What would cause 20% of the installed boards to start splitting along the "joint" lines, starting at the ends? This is nail down over wood subfloor in a new construction home; the wood is really wet-measuring 14% to 16%.
Replys: From
What did the substrate (that it was attached to)meter for moisture content? Do you have EMC?? floorcovering@cox.net
10/08/09
I was unable to measure the moisture in the substrate which is typical. Short of removing flooring, how do you measure moisture in the subfloor? What does EMC mean? flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
The flooring is a four-strip finger jointed material. It had a higher moisture when installed than does now (as measured by gapping and 10 across width). Is there anything the installer did or site condtions that would cause the splitting, or is it manufacturer related-perhaps from moisture imbalance between joined section, causing stress as they dry down to normal moisture levels? flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
Maybe to your questions...but first, you must review EMC or Equal Moisture Content....take moisture readings of the baseboard, joists from under the home, or any common wood cloose to the or attached to the flooring. What did an extra of wood meter? Was the material wrapped in plastic in the box, was it opened and material acclimated? Improper nailing? Measurement of the tongue and groove to standard? I take it that spitting is on the tongue only? e-mail me floorcovering@cox.net
10/09/09
My mistake; I guess this is called vertical laminated solid hardwood. The splitting is along the glue lines between glued sections/strips. As far as the moisture questions-can improper acclimation cause splitting along the glue lines?? How is that possible? Whether the flooring is first acclimated properly in unsealed cartons, or is nailed down and then acclimates to the home environment, what difference would that make on splitting at the glue lines? The tongues have no splitting. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
I would be more concerned with if the home was enclosed when the floor went down. The cause of the cracks at the joints is the high moisture. No way that it left the mill at that high numbers. This has to be site or storage related to cause such a high moisture content. donsgroi@gmail.com
10/09/09
Okay, but I’ve seen a number of wood floors with similar high moisture readings, especially where one board is 12% and the adjacent one is 15%, and the overall average was maybe 13 or 14%. And this has been increasing for me over the last year or so. I think some of the manufacturers are not taking the time to dry down the wood properly before shipping. flooringinspections@yahoo.com
10/09/09
^^^Did you get these readings from uninstalled or installed planks. You have no way to verify what they were dried at since you were not there. They can pick up moisture once they leave the manufacturer from any number of places. You can measure substrate if it is wood if you have a hammer probe. If not, pin it, drive nails into the pin holes until you feel them go into the sub floor & pin the nails. sjohnston1@triad.rr.com
10/09/09
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on -
ok, how can the inspection community stop this?
Well how about NICFI? Don't they represent the inspection community oir are you saying they are in the manufactures pocket as well? The NWFA represents manufactures yet they also train inspectors. Are they also tainted? I read over at the floortech.com forum they are.
I know that guy your talking about. Lee Tucker, the most honest guy there is. The mills say they do not understand his reports because they are so dumb and do not know the science behind it. Lee Tucker should get the medal of honor and he will never be forgotten by installers.
Even one floor pro foum went againt him because they were taking money from a certification entity that was certifying inspectors without testing them.
The stench runs deep and really....reflects on whe whole floorcovering community.
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on -
getting worse,
I saw another one of these reports two weeks ago, a "form" report", where the inspector just went with what the two homeowners, townhouses, said, that gaps were present at the time of installation, please think of that, how can that be? unless, the installer really doesn't give a fornk, and, he did not measure one board, and wrote it up like that, but, get this,
upon further questioning, it was revealed that the wood was glued in in Dec of 08, and the owners did not move in until Feb of 09,,,wait! two months! no one in the townhouses! in the winter, heat off! what is going on here!???
Two whole months, no one saw the floor but, the inspector report the end gaps were present at the time of installation, can anyone tell me how he could say that?
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on
-
lets examine another statement,
one says, end joints swelled from moisture in the adhesive, that can happen, but then shrank?
what would happen to the wood if it swelled pressing against each other?
and then? what would be the shape or configuration?
what would we see at the gaps?
oh, they have so little of anything.
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on
-
another one, a voice of reason!
"This does not sound like a product issue since the installer admitted to installing with gaps. I think a FEW gaps of up to 1/16" or .060" should be considered acceptable, if they are filled. The manufacturers allow themselves 5%. The installer should not have to deliver 100% perfect. Stain and putty are a normal part of any hardwood floor installation. djhoran@comcast.net"
sounds like, a man who knows.
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on
-
Next, he calls is solid, then, a few more names, laminated solid hardwood???
or, how about, vertical solid hardwood?
or, finger block vertical hardwood? that is laminated?
or, what? is it the unfinished engineered that is becoming popular?
or, factory finished finger blocked engineered?
and, now, he says, it is splitting between the finger blocks so are the blocks under the veneer or the veneer is really small blocks, like in, gosh! gosh! bamboo?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!!!
I now wonder, which?
and, he had to ask, what is EMC????? may the Big Installer in the Sky have mercy on his soul for the harm he does.
the more I read, the more, I see, more than ignorance. -
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on
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Steve, we need to talk
"Did you get these readings from uninstalled or installed planks. You have no way to verify what they were dried at since you were not there. They can pick up moisture once they leave the manufacturer from any number of places. You can measure substrate if it is wood if you have a hammer probe. If not, pin it, drive nails into the pin holes until you feel them go into the sub floor & pin the nails."
sjohnston1@triad.rr.com
10/09/09 -
-
Permalink Reply by Grumpy on
-
oh, I got more to ask,
so, the blocks are splitting, what does that tell us about the product?
Two important items?
and another guy said, we can't figure out MC at manufacturing, but, can we? or, can we, if we had the data that needed to be collected, make a sound determination as to if the product was manufactured at a high MC?
what does the slitting or gaps appearing between the blocks tell us, so simple!
enough, idiots, pure simple idiots, and so they blame the installer repeating as his statements something the homeowner said,,, or mis-said, or just lied to get new floors,
again, how many installers would say that?
where are our time lines?
nothing about the environment,
nothing in these post but, crap. -
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Permalink Reply by Woodie to you on
-
Wow look what I been missing, holy smokes, I am not the smartest guy in the world, but reading this sure gives new meaning to the blind leading the blind, he has his own opinion of what happened then get more bad info from people that know no more than he does.
These clowns make me a flipping genius.
End gapping at install is acceptable?
How do you get a vertical laminated engineered hardwood?
doesnt sound like any real tests were done,
Its typical to not get a measurement on the subfloor? does that make him stupid or just lazy?
etc etc etc.
I also see some very recognizable names in the posts, ones that I have attended class with that should know better and obviously were not paying attention and didnt get their moneys worth from that class.
I could go on, but its just not worth it
unfortunately, the policing of the industry will not happen, guys like this keep getting work cause when they dont know they blame the installer its a given, they have the conclusion written before they enter the home.
I ran into a situation where a person had listed themselves as a hard surface/wood inspector, he had so such certification from any organization, the organization that he was certified for carpet through decided that because he wasnt hurting them that is was ok for him to do what ever he wanted.
In my opinion he should have had all his certs revoked, he has shown himself as less than honest by lying about his certs but he is still out there working. God bless stupidity and ignorance.
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Permalink Reply by Kirt Dills on -
Grumpy,very funny,and I have to say you have roasted him well enough to where Im left speechless on the topic.Thanks for sticking up for guys who love and take pride in what we do,the non hackers ha ha!
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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again, how many installers would say that?
Not this installer LOL Cus I use putty...putty is yer buddy Sounds like the fillets are popping apart.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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I'm trying to keep up here but between turkey and massive quantities of beer and wine...relatives its hard. Hey, isin't this guy a FITS inspector? I think he might be, which leads me to ask why would any pro flooring forum/website approve and advertise for them....why would you even go there?
Quote: They are abnormal gaps that do not open and close seasonally. NWFA Problems, causes and cures, abnormal gaps, I think page 10. INSPECCPT@AOL.COM
10/30/09
Hmmm >>>abnormal gaps that do not open and close seasonallybr />
Does that mean any floor that has no seasonal gaps is abnormal? LOL Must be the wine!
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