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Moisture testing - What does it REALLY tell you?
In a recent deposition I attended where an inspector was being asked by the attorney about the tests this person did, I was there to give the attorney additional questions about the procedures used, etc.
One question I kept coming back to and it became the questioning attorney's mantra, is "how do you know?". Indeed, when moisture tests are taken and a manufacturer claims the results are safe of unacceptible, how do THEY know? Have you ever asked them, and kept pressing? The short answer, they DON'T know. This inspector was basically taken apart, because this inspector DIDN'T know..in fact most don't and worse, aren't even aware they don't know!
Who is aware of ANY scientific studies that confirm a moisture level will cause a flooring material to fail in performance, at time of installation, during a reasonable life expectancy, etc. This is simply a case of someone coming up with something that everyone else parroted because they felt it came from a respected authority.
One question, will moisture cause a failure? yes, but how much and what kind? and is the moisture pure, contaminated, etc.
Here is a challenge for the flooring folks on here..look and try to find any combination of "moisture problems" that will cause failures more often than floors applied at dewpoint.
I am leaving this here to stimulate input, questions and discussions of the various moisture tests, tesing methods, etc. What should be the bare minimum of testing procedure conducted on ANY job...
One question I kept coming back to and it became the questioning attorney's mantra, is "how do you know?". Indeed, when moisture tests are taken and a manufacturer claims the results are safe of unacceptible, how do THEY know? Have you ever asked them, and kept pressing? The short answer, they DON'T know. This inspector was basically taken apart, because this inspector DIDN'T know..in fact most don't and worse, aren't even aware they don't know!
Who is aware of ANY scientific studies that confirm a moisture level will cause a flooring material to fail in performance, at time of installation, during a reasonable life expectancy, etc. This is simply a case of someone coming up with something that everyone else parroted because they felt it came from a respected authority.
One question, will moisture cause a failure? yes, but how much and what kind? and is the moisture pure, contaminated, etc.
Here is a challenge for the flooring folks on here..look and try to find any combination of "moisture problems" that will cause failures more often than floors applied at dewpoint.
I am leaving this here to stimulate input, questions and discussions of the various moisture tests, tesing methods, etc. What should be the bare minimum of testing procedure conducted on ANY job...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Lance Ortegel on -
Does this count?
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2009_1014insp0041.JPG, 1.5 MB
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on -
Lance, nice one, that looks like a 10 ish on your paper. But is your paper fresh? Seems like that would read like a 12 or more. Ouch it's ugly! I think you answered one of the questions, high ph.
Ya know Bob, if I saw you there in court on opposing counsel I might get up and leave. ha ha
Can you restate this sentence in laymans terms, You confused me right off the bat. "Indeed, when moisture tests are taken and a manufacturer claims the results are safe of unacceptible, how do THEY know?".
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Permalink Reply by Bob Higgins on -
What I am saying..is flooring inspectors can challenge the so-called limits placed by flooring manufacturers, as well as the industry...for a moisture level, ANY moisture level to be considered a valid number, there has to be something of substance behind it..such as a study or test that shows where the failures will occur, what percentage, etc.
To my knowledge, none exist..which has inadvertently created something of a cottage for the legal profession.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Bob, as an installer/contractor all I know is I must follow manufactures requirements. And I usually do to the T. But what I am afraid of is if and when I do and it fails...who is coming after me.
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Permalink Reply by Bob Higgins on
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When a manufacturer has requirements, they also must have a justification for such requirements, otherwise it poses a virtually unwinnable or indefensible burden on the installer.
I have been trying for years to get the manufacturers to the table, to no avail....so now, it's time for the installers to hold their ground and demand proof..just because a lot of people say something is a fact...it is simply a modern day version of an old wives tale and if not supportable through facts, then must be held accountible..ask them to show the data that proves their claims..we have as an industry, simply accepted what was said, rather than what is factual..provocative? yes..necessary? absolutely..we are not progressing in the right direction..simply because there are too many agendas.
This is why I am starting to challenge what is being stated in inspection reports, manufacturer requirements, specifications...this house of cards needs to be rebuilt, and on a solid foundation..so the simple question I asked in that deposition remains "How do THEY know?". demand answers, demand proof..no proof, no facts...period
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on -
I was asked to do some Rh testing on a site, three holes in a house,
later, I told another inspector, in a group of us, that my readings were 76, 83, 86,
he asked me what I had figured out, and theorize about my readings,,I deal in science and facts,
I replied, " I don't know", I don't deal in theories....and I simply did what I was hired to do. I have no idea if those readings will indicate a future problem or not.
I agree with Bob, for some years now, when I ask "why or how" I have been, well, a target.
We only have what the industry tells us, from the manufacturers.
Inspection schools go begging to the manufacturers for approval so inspectors will kiss their asses begging for work,,,,I would like to see, some real independent inspectors, not scared to beg at the doorstep of the mills,
We are trying, hard, to move away from that with the Educational Guild, and, are slowly making some headway,,,
I hope, with good people like Bob asking these questions, it keeps moving in the right direction,
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Ever hear the phrase "Truth To Power"? Thats what Bob just wrote!
Lee has been fighting that fight for years. It is dear to my heart as well. Makes my eyes kinda well up to hear someone of Bob's authority to speak out on the subject.
I see manufactures requirements for rh, mve's and temp getting stricter and stricter. Many making me the installer responsible for them in clients homes. Like I can force ppl to abide by these unattainable requirements and forces of nature. The manufactures want to sell it to them but want no responsiblitly what so ever. Besides the installer/contractor getting the run around so does the end user.
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Permalink Reply by Bob Higgins on
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Thank you....what Grumpy does is precisely what EVERY inspector should do..follow the requirements..don't volunteer information and leave the interpretation up to those who require it..they ask and demand certain procedures..it is up to THEM to justify it..I think we are onto something here!!
You to have picked a path that can well be the future directive for inspectors..with a little tweaking here and there.
When I first authored the technical portion of the "white paper" I had no idea how misconstrued that would be..it was intended to protect the flooring industry..and everyone in it. I didn't mind not getting credited for it..but I DID get irritated when I heard others taking credit for it..that is just plain wrong...I have talked with aother concrete authority Ashok Kakade..and am planning on co-authoring an article on moisture testing....addressing the science of what moisture "testing" truly is.
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Permalink Reply by choppyguy on -
i really aprreciate all your postings, bob. i've learned a lot, and as most learning things go, the more you know the more you know you don't know.
the ph test, do you take a sample of the "bottom dust in the hole" you just drilled for the sensor? distilled wate? what mix? what are the problems if the ph is above or below 9.25?
what are the acceptable rh levels? most contractors are going to balk at a 3 day test anyway, from what i see, the installer must make this a provision of the contract or he's liable.
i'm only aware of wagner and lignomat rh sensors. do you recommend either or another? thanks again for spending your time helping us.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Bob, you think the white paper would be more highly regarded legally if it were a industry standard instead of a white paper like I mentioned in my blog? I thought ther idea and intent were great but it looks to me like no one is paying attention to it.
In just about every manufactures installation requirements/instructions the man says installer is responsible for moisture testing and having abient temp/rh in the specified zone. What the heck?
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Permalink Reply by Bob Higgins on
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Stephen, when a Manufacturer states the installer is responsible for anything..they have to be able to justify their position. Is it fair, is it reasonable to assume such installers have the proper training and sophistication? Further, what has said manufacturer done to encourage or develop such training methods?
If something is being sold to somebody, there is a reasonable assumption that the product can be used as sold, as represented..without any more input than is available on the label, UNLESS otherwise stated.
...and if additional training is required, where are the restrictions placed upon the avaiability of a product that may require more information in less than ideal conditions?
Some of the problems...we haven't asked the right questions..time to start asking...such as what, pray tell, is such information reasonably available and what is accurate and justifiable? -
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Permalink Reply by Bob Higgins on
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great question..but do NOT take the pH reading of the dust..it acually exposes elements not necessarily available to the pore spaces in the concrete and thereby can actually throw off the results rather than confirm them
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