Let's talk flooring!
Moisture testing - What does it REALLY tell you?
In a recent deposition I attended where an inspector was being asked by the attorney about the tests this person did, I was there to give the attorney additional questions about the procedures used, etc.
One question I kept coming back to and it became the questioning attorney's mantra, is "how do you know?". Indeed, when moisture tests are taken and a manufacturer claims the results are safe of unacceptible, how do THEY know? Have you ever asked them, and kept pressing? The short answer, they DON'T know. This inspector was basically taken apart, because this inspector DIDN'T know..in fact most don't and worse, aren't even aware they don't know!
Who is aware of ANY scientific studies that confirm a moisture level will cause a flooring material to fail in performance, at time of installation, during a reasonable life expectancy, etc. This is simply a case of someone coming up with something that everyone else parroted because they felt it came from a respected authority.
One question, will moisture cause a failure? yes, but how much and what kind? and is the moisture pure, contaminated, etc.
Here is a challenge for the flooring folks on here..look and try to find any combination of "moisture problems" that will cause failures more often than floors applied at dewpoint.
I am leaving this here to stimulate input, questions and discussions of the various moisture tests, tesing methods, etc. What should be the bare minimum of testing procedure conducted on ANY job...
One question I kept coming back to and it became the questioning attorney's mantra, is "how do you know?". Indeed, when moisture tests are taken and a manufacturer claims the results are safe of unacceptible, how do THEY know? Have you ever asked them, and kept pressing? The short answer, they DON'T know. This inspector was basically taken apart, because this inspector DIDN'T know..in fact most don't and worse, aren't even aware they don't know!
Who is aware of ANY scientific studies that confirm a moisture level will cause a flooring material to fail in performance, at time of installation, during a reasonable life expectancy, etc. This is simply a case of someone coming up with something that everyone else parroted because they felt it came from a respected authority.
One question, will moisture cause a failure? yes, but how much and what kind? and is the moisture pure, contaminated, etc.
Here is a challenge for the flooring folks on here..look and try to find any combination of "moisture problems" that will cause failures more often than floors applied at dewpoint.
I am leaving this here to stimulate input, questions and discussions of the various moisture tests, tesing methods, etc. What should be the bare minimum of testing procedure conducted on ANY job...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dale Rosilio on -
Understood and explained well......
Thanks. -
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Permalink Reply by Grumpy on -
When is it a test, and, when is it a measurement?
When I place my thermal hydrometer on the flooring, am I measuring the Rh/t or testing it?
Am I measuring pH levels or testing it?
When doing an oven dry on wood, am I measuring the results every few hours by a test or means of testing or, measuring changes by a test procedure?
Can get, interesting.
I say many times these days, I measured the Rh/t, or, I measured the MC using a Delmhorst Electrical Resistance Pin Meter.
do we average results or use specific data to note trends in our, test or measurements?
Many say, average everything, others say they will burn you if you do that because you are ignoring important data to evaluate.
by the way, do we evaluate by industry standards or analysis data using industry standards? -
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on -
Bob, did you read our friend and newest member Jon Namba's article in the most recent Hardwood Floors magazine? ;)
He uses the term: testing procedures. Is that better?
Pg 12-13
http://hwfmag.com/digitalissue/1009/
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Permalink Reply by Bob Higgins on -
Testing methods..tesing procedures are all correct terminology and VERY safe to use (Good job John!)..even the word "testing" by itself is ok when used in proper context. It's when someone mistakenly says using the procedures or methods in the "whatever number" test. Unfortunately words can be dangerous..and I find myself correcting my own reports when I get on a roll and type out the thoughts first..and when editing have to restate as testing methods or testing procedures. The problems begin when someone refers to an ASTM or other designation as a "Test" when it has no precision and bias.always check first...
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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So you would say "results from ASTM so an so procedure were" ....something like that?
Oh hey Bob, you know these guys? http://www.advancedmoisturecontrol.com/Resources.html
I saw their google ad on the sidebar front page and clicked on it. They have some interesting pictures. These google ads change all the time, depending on whats being posted.
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Permalink Reply by Bob Higgins on
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Yeah..I know those guys...a relatively new company with "years" of experience..the dichonomy of marketing versus reality I suppose...
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Permalink Reply by Bob Higgins on
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darn it..I was interupted during the editing process and didn't finish my last comment...have to get back to it later
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Permalink Reply by Bob Higgins on
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What I wanted to include, is many specifiers and others are adding inappropriate ASTM requirements to their specifications, based solely on what they are being sales pitched, rather than based on any semblance of reality or appropriateness.
There are two that come to mind when moisture control products are specified for a moisture problem...ASTM E96 and ASTM D1308.
Either through ignorance or duplicity some are touting these two test methods as appropriate for evaluating the effectiveness of a moisture-control product/system. The hard facts..neither has anything whatsoever to do with either concrete or negative-side moisture control.
E96 is designed to test the vapor permeability of plastic films and insulating materials. The test method is to test for materials no thicker than 1 1/4", of which concrete is nominally 4-6 inches.
D1308 is designed to test the effect of household chemicals on clear and pigmented organic finishes. Since it is safe to say that the alkalinity of concrete does NOT qualify as a household chemical, nor are the negative-side moisture control products seldom, if EVER utilized as a finished floor surface; there is nothing about this standard that even infers its suitability for alkalinity resistance in contact with concrete.
ASTM E96 / E96M - 05 Standard Test Methods for Water Vapor Transmission of Materials
ASTM D1308 - 02(2007) Standard Test Method for Effect of Household Chemicals on Clear and Pigmented Organic Finishes
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Interesting Bob, here is a couple links to the most popular wood flooring adhesive and trowel on vapor retarder used in the U.S. Note on the Bostiks Best there is reference to the ASTM E-96 standard test method but yet on either one you see nothing spec'd about ph of the slab.
http://www.bostik-us.com/Files/TDSfiles/BostiksBest.pdf
http://www.bostik-us.com/Files/TDSFiles/MVP4.pdf
*2Per ASTM E-96 Standard Test Methods for Water Vapor Transmission
of Materials. Ratings are g/m2 -24hour-mmHG.
Funniest thing Bob is I've invited several well known inspectors and manufactures of mve to come here and comment on your postings but yet they are all afraid to comment. But they do read them.
I'm just wondering if they are afraid to post and or seeing what they have been writing on reports as a convience to the rehortic passed along by their certification entities and manufactures and are afraid it may blow up in their faces.
I often wonder how many installers and retailers who have followed installation guidelines to the letter but yet have been shot down by inspectors and manufactures having been denied claims who don't really know what you know.
How would any installers know what g/m2 -24hour-mmHG really means and how you would apply it? These manufactures write all kinds of outs for them in their warranty's. Who can really tell if it's going to work or not?
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Permalink Reply by Bob Higgins on
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That is where the inspectors can fight back..and aren't even aware of it...the manufacturers and/or architects will many times, refer to a document and everyone accepts it...if the information the document or "requirement" is not based on factual information, it isn't enforceable..but the inspector has to be persistent and insist on seeing the validation for such requirements..like the architects..they see an official looking document and are afraid to ask questions, for fear of appearing ignorant or stupid..that's ok..I'll do it for them!! LOL
Remember back in the 80's when I got blasted for insisting moisture problems on floors weren't hydrostatic problems and I got blasted for that? Or when Chris Capobianco's article in Flooring Magazine on the information I'd gathered for pH influences were just as, if not more important than moisture itself?
Many of those insisting pH and/or alkalinity weren't an issue, turned around and pretended they knew it all along..and nothing ever changes...people are more comfortable with simple, pat answers... -
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Was that the 80's or 90's? No matter I remember the bantering back and forth on Freds forum like it was yesterday. As a matter of fact I copied many of those discussions and have them filed away. Once in awhile I go through and read them. And don't even start me on Capobianco's articles lol. I've called Dan over there several times complaining about that guy.
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