Let's talk flooring!
Proper Relative Humidity - Hardwood
How I missed this article in the BNP/FCI magazine from last year by Micky Moore I don't know. I found the magazine at the bottom of my brief case.
But in any case this is a hot topic for down here and many other dry areas of the states. Note the part about Engineered and the HPVA. Many a engineered hardwood floor claim for delamination has been denied when it should not be. As a matter of fact, last year about this time is when I got in a heated debate with the owner of an inspection brokerage firm about delamination of an engineered product. The manufacture denied the claim, thats when I decided to stop working for them.
How many consumers have been denied claims for this? Your guess is as good as mine but it could be into the thousands. On one back-up inspection I performed, one inspector said the delamination was due to the installer hitting the nailer to hard. Little did he realize the flooring was delaminating from both tongue and grooved sides. And even on uninstalled planks OUCH!
Snip:
However, there are engineered manufacturers that recommend the use of their product only where the environmental conditions are within a specified relative humidity range, typically from 30 – 35% to 50 – 65%. You note that these are the same as with solid wood. When issues arise, particularly those associated with delamination, claims have been denied because the recorded humidity was above or below the recommended range. Both NOFMA and the HPVA (Hardwood Plywood Veneer Association) feel that properly manufactured engineered flooring should not delaminate under normal environmental conditions associated with any area in the USA. This includes the desert southwest with typically low humidity and the gulf coast and southern coast with typically high relative humidity.
Link: http://www.fcimag.com/Articles/Feature_Article/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_...
But in any case this is a hot topic for down here and many other dry areas of the states. Note the part about Engineered and the HPVA. Many a engineered hardwood floor claim for delamination has been denied when it should not be. As a matter of fact, last year about this time is when I got in a heated debate with the owner of an inspection brokerage firm about delamination of an engineered product. The manufacture denied the claim, thats when I decided to stop working for them.
How many consumers have been denied claims for this? Your guess is as good as mine but it could be into the thousands. On one back-up inspection I performed, one inspector said the delamination was due to the installer hitting the nailer to hard. Little did he realize the flooring was delaminating from both tongue and grooved sides. And even on uninstalled planks OUCH!
Snip:
However, there are engineered manufacturers that recommend the use of their product only where the environmental conditions are within a specified relative humidity range, typically from 30 – 35% to 50 – 65%. You note that these are the same as with solid wood. When issues arise, particularly those associated with delamination, claims have been denied because the recorded humidity was above or below the recommended range. Both NOFMA and the HPVA (Hardwood Plywood Veneer Association) feel that properly manufactured engineered flooring should not delaminate under normal environmental conditions associated with any area in the USA. This includes the desert southwest with typically low humidity and the gulf coast and southern coast with typically high relative humidity.
Link: http://www.fcimag.com/Articles/Feature_Article/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_...
Tags: SEO, climates, digg, dry, flooring, google, hardwood, humidification, installer, linking
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Jerome on -
"" Despite the ability of properly manufactured wood flooring to perform well in conditions outside the commonly stated ranges (30-35% RH to 50-65% RH), there are some manufacturers who recommend using their product only in certain RH ranges. Typically these recommended ranges are given as a means for the manufacturer to avoid being liable for claims. NOFMA recommends taking those manufacturers on their word and avoiding use of their products if the stated environmental conditions cannot be maintained over time.
Instead use a properly manufactured wood flooring product that does not make these restrictive recommendations. Then, properly acclimate it, install it, and enjoy it.
Mickey Moore ""
I believe I'd take them on their word too.... :)
-
Permalink Reply by Stephen on -
Oh absolutely Jerry. I think they should lower their requirements though if they are selling to areas as described in Mr. Moore's article.
And to tell you the truth, every manufacture I have knowledge of has jumped on the rh bandwagon. So I believe it will be very difficult to find one that does not have these restrictions.
All you can do is try an attain the level they ask as much as you can and expect some checking. But I believe delamination should not happen period!
-
Permalink Reply by Dale Rosilio on -
Seems to me that an engineered floor, I've been told this in the past, are designed for more questionable installations where solid wood isn't recommended due to stability issues? Like over radiant heat or basements where engineered is billed as a more suitable and stable alternative. Sounds like another worthless claim like the warranties that manufacturers write....LOL
I agree that an engineered shouldn't be delaminating under most conditions except flooding.....
-
Permalink Reply by Stephen on
-
Dale, your correct. Some of you may remember this from our old forum which lost much infor during the transformation. Here is part of a thread concerning delamination of engineered flooring:
I'm not Ray, but let me list a few statements from the ANSI/HPVA EF 2002:
A4.2:
as may occur with flooding due to plumbing leaks or excessively wet concrete slabs can result in surface checks or, at extreme conditions, discoloration of the wood surface.
3.9 Moisture Content - upon manufacture:
The average moisture content of the flooring shall be between 5% and 9% at the time of shipment from the manufctuers plant.
The American National Standard for Engineered Wood Flooring, ANSI/HPVA EF 2002
3.5 Bond Line – All adjacent surfaces of each ply shall be uniformly and securely
bonded. The flooring shall conform to the requirements of the bond test described in 4.2
3.7 Construction – The flooring pieces shall be of balanced construction, which means
that they are free from warp or twist to the extent that they do not interfere with the
installation or negatively affect the intended use of the product. The purpose of this
requirement is to provide a product which will perform satisfactorily over the typical
range of humidity and temperature in an indoor environment, when installed according to
the instructions of the manufacturer. Any construction with an even or odd number of
plies, and any combination of thicknesses and shrinkage characteristics that meets the
requirement for balanced construction is permitted. No two adjacent plies shall have
coinciding openings greater than 12.7 mm (1/2 inch)
4.2 Bond Line Test – Two test speciments, 50.8 mm (2 inches) wide by 127 mm (5
inches) along the grain, shall be cut from each flooring sample tested. The specimens
shall be cut from opposite sides of the flooring after all tongue and groove portions have
been removed. The specimens shall be submerged in water at 24 C+-3C (75 F +-5F) for 4
hours, and then dried at a temperature between 49 and 52 C (120 and 125 F) for 19 hours,
with sufficient air circulation to lower the moisture content (based on oven-dry weight) of
the specimens to a maximum of 8 percent. This cycle shall be repeated until all
specimens fail or until thr ee cycles have been completed, whichever occurs first. The
flooring shall be considered as failing when any single delamination between two plies of
either specimen is greater than 50.8 mm (2 inches) in continuous length, over 6.4 mm
(1/4 inch) in depth at any pint, and 0.08 mm (.003 inch) in width as determined by a
feeler gauge 0.08 mm (0.003 inches) thick and 12.7 mm (1/2 inch) wide. Specimens shall
be examined for delamination at the end of each cycle. Delamination due to tape at joints
or inner plies or defects allowed by the grade shall be disregarded. For performing the
bond line test, the flooring samples shall be selected in multiples of ten in order to
provide for a sufficient number of specimens (two specimens per sample) to which the
acceptance levels are applied. Ninety-five percent of test specimens shall pass the first
cycle, and eighty- five percent of test specimens shall pass the third cycle.
If you read all this you will find that engineered wood is not to be affected by indoor environements no matter where it is installed. The material can be flooded three times, dried three times and have minimum delam and THEN ONLY AT THE EDGES... how abou them apples?
So, good sir.
Tell me what can cause delamination on an installation site other than Dog Urine, Water for extended periods of time???
Nothing on site can create delamination without there being extraordinary circumstances... I guess I should have put that "extraordinary" circumstances in my statement. Put the material anywhere in North America and the product should not fail or it is a defect. The Desert, The Florida Keys or any Environmental condition in North America cannot (should not) be the cause of failure ( PER THE STANDARDS ).
Now::: per the Uniform Commercial Code:
Go read the Commercial Code. It states that if you sell a product it must be up to the task. If the Manufacturer sells the product for installation in homes located in the desert, they are saying the product will perform in those conditions... If it does not;;; The manufacturer is responsible.
I hesitate in giving you the UCC information because I'm making a damned good living off wood that is delaminating or lifting on the edges and performing consumer claims following inspectors who believe the same way you do............
What Selva is not telling you is;;;;;;;;;; SO IS HE ......... He understands wood and engineered wood and is having a great old time following the same kinds of inspectors I am....!! They go to litigation and the CONSUMER WINS........... and all because the product has a U.S.A Uniform Commercial Code Warranty that simply says " if it won't work, don't sell it for that application"
the end
-
Permalink Reply by Tenn Essee on -
Everyone keeps referring to delamination, which is defined as a failure of the glue bond. What I have seen in extreme low RH conditions is tearing of the wood fiber, not a failure of the glue bond. The glue has held firm, the adjoining ply's fibers are still attached, but the wood has torn under the stress of the dry conditions. Specifically saw this on a job in Las Vegas with RH readings of 10%! Took uninstalled material left from the job, performed the bond line test, all 3 cycles, and 100% of samples passed with no delam. Then for good measure, added 1 more cycle with a boil, and still passed. Should the manufacturer be responsible? Their material passed the ANSI test. Is it out of line for them to dictate an acceptable RH range.
-
Permalink Reply by Dale Rosilio on
-
No it's not out of line to dictate an acceptable RH range, but then you shouldn't be allowed to market your product in the way that they do. Like prefinished warranties that state that your finish will be warranted from wear for 10 years only so long as, you, like Jesus Christ can walk on water and never touch the surface.
-
Permalink Reply by Stephen on
-
>>>Reply by Tenn Essee 2 hours ago
Everyone keeps referring to delamination, which is defined as a failure of the glue bond. What I have seen in extreme low RH conditions is tearing of the wood fiber, not a failure of the glue bond. <
What specifically is "tearing of the wood fiber" Tenn Essee? I don't find that term in my FPL glossary.
Is that splitting of the surface layer? Can you be more specific or post a picture?
-
Permalink Reply by Floorguy on -
They call it "Shear" now. I ain't buying it.
Back 10 15 years ago, you never ever saw a delamination of engineered wood, then it was called laminated wood. It was all the same species, from top to bottom, all the plies were of equal thickness. 3/8th's-3 ply never had issues. On a soaking wet slab, it would just raise the grain.
-
Permalink Reply by Woodie to you on
-
Well, a small start anyway,
in todays "engineered" wood flooring, delam can occur from the expansion and contraction of the layers, the layers of the flooring are of different species and have different expansion and contraction properties.
For example, if the the wood in the core layer expands at 20% more that the veneer, than as it expands at a greater rate, either the glue bond breaks or the veneer layer must split to accomodate the added expansion of the under layer. this would also apply in the reverse scenario, in this case this would not be a truly balanced construction
-
-
moisture content of the plies at time of manufacture the moisture that is added to the layers from the adhesive itself,
and as we all know, since some of the cores are assembled and shipped here for the veneer to be added,do we really know what types of wood are going into the core of some of these products. -
-
Permalink Reply by Stephen on
-
Reply by Woodie to you 3 hours ago
moisture content of the plies at time of manufacture the moisture that is added to the layers from the adhesive itself,
and as we all know, since some of the cores are assembled and shipped here for the veneer to be added,do we really know what types of wood are going into the core of some of these products.
Or what adhesive they are using. Some , not all American manufactures that contract out their wood to be made abroad or partially made heavily monitor the manufacturing process. Many do not and just don't care.
Notes
Flooring
Flooring is one of the most important areas in home decor. And high quality flooring matched with high quality installation is the perfect solution to any flooring project.
Created by Steve Simonson Nov 6, 2008 at 10:58am. Last updated by Steve Simonson Nov 6, 2008.
Steve's Resource List
- Flooring iFLOOR
- Flooring Reviews (Floor Du Jour for consumers)
- Flooring & Furniture Wholesale (Gala Manufacturing)
- Flooring Underlayment Floating Flooring
- Bamboo Flooring Bamboo Flooring…
Created by Steve Simonson Oct 22, 2008 at 12:06am. Last updated by Steve Simonson May 5, 2011.
Badge
© 2012 Created by Steve Simonson.
