Let's talk flooring!
The "Directive" From An Inspection Brokerage Firm
Well most of us knew this and I have even been told the foreign manufactures and even our own manufactures having their engineered hardwood manufactured out of country is not made to U.S. Standards.So therefore our standards do not apply in any inspection report. One of the main reasons I stopped doing inspections for them.
The theory goes that manufacturer standards trumph U.S. Standards unless specified. This might take some large lawsuits to rid us of this menace. I tell my clients about who is manufacturing this junk.
Here is another blatent directive going around in an email to all inspectors of the firm that will screw over many a consumer when their hardwood floor starts to fall apart Wheres the hardwood industry when you need them? NWFA ???
"Unless a manufacturer ‘specifically’ states in their advertising, installation guidelines and/or literature that they manufacture their products to ANSI or ASTM standards, and that their products comply with these standards, you are NOT to reference these standards in your reports or conclusions!"
"Again, unless the manufacturer ‘specifically’ states that their products comply with the ANSI and /or ASTM standards, they can manufacture their products any way they choose as long as it meets their own guidelines. The manufacturers’ guidelines prevail over any other industry standards and/or guidelines."
Taken from an article at http://floortektalk.com/vbulletin/index.php
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on -
Well if they don't have to be held accountable to industry standards then why should any installer be held to installation standards?
Seems like a one way street to me.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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No, I mean the manufacturer can make up their own rules and disregard industry standards for manufacturing yet the installer is still held accountable to industry standards for installation. I've seen it where they say install to NWFA requirements yata yata but yet they do not manufacture to any in this country.
So esscentually they can say..screw the recognized industry standards and screw the consumer who is thinking....gee this flooring looks great....it must be quality stuff because it is sold in the U.S.A and made to OUR industry standards. But no it is not and will fall apart in a matter of days if the rh is to low or to high or tempp swing is to radical.
Yet those installers better install our stuff to those NWFA standards because if they don't we will send out our "factory authorized" inspector who used to be a carpet cleaner last week and nail his azz to the wall.
How fair is that I ask?
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Reply by Selva Lee Tucker 12 hours ago
I, your installer, can not warrant any aspect of this product from manufacturing to installation to maintenance because it does not meet the minimum standards
I'm glad you mentioned that. The HPVA writes the standards and are as I see it "minimum" standards. So these company's that do not manufacture to even these "minimum" standards are taking advantage of the consumer and most likely the retailer and installer who's knowledge is not sufficient in this arena of manufacturing.
I was recently coaching a lady here who bought some imported engineered that was checking and splitting along with some minimal delamination of the fillets. First the nationwide wood dealer we we call "TT" for now said it was not their problem. The consumer kept on pressuring them so TT called out the inspector. Inspector called it on site conditions. That the rh was to low according to their installation requirements. Only they didn't supply literature in the boxes for the installer or had given any to the consumer.
I know this is possible because I have installed a few floors from there that have had absolutely no literature in the boxes.
After more coaching by me they..TT then changed their opinion that it was the installers fault for installing it in conditions not specified in they're literature. Even though it is their installers who are listed to them through another entity. As a contractor you cannot install their products or get on this list unless approved by TT. Thats how low they will go.
So on the raod to the construction lawyers office they go.
What really pisses me off is that often times the installers is held accountable for the site conditions, just like we are held accountable for moisture in slabs. Basically the same scenerio of the manufacturing community taking advantage of the installation community on issues we cannot control and some retailers but not all retailers are ignorant of this issue.
All that said...on the front page of the HVPA site it says that over 90% of the hardwood plywood manufactures in the U.S. are members of the HVPA and do manufacture to these standards. Which includes engineered flooring.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Oh FYI....there is also a Canadian Hardwood Plywood Veneer Association:
http://www.chpva.ca/index.php?lang=2
Makes you kinda wonder if they have the same standards for hardwood plywood used in manufacturing engineered hardwood flooring. Any bets out there?
And do those Canadian manufactures like Mirage and Lumber Liquidators use it?
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Reply by Selva Lee Tucker 17 hours ago
You do know, that many 'engineered floors" are made by people who do not know there is a science behind it,
I read....as evidenced by the multi-ply wars in the last decade where the more plys often were thought to be better, 3ply went to 12 ply and thinner plys had to be made or else it would be 3/4 material ha ha
MY old 1980'ish Bruce 3ply 3/8 flooring is still performing well to this day. -
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Permalink Reply by Dan Schultz on -
So, what to do when warranty information states warranty is only valid if:
* Floor is installed using the recommended installation methods
* The end user adheres to floor maintenance procedures
* Proper humidity conditions are maintained
Distributor will not provide any of this information, including name of manufacturer?
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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You mean like the ppl over at the old floormasters who live in British Columbia and are having checking issues?
The way I see it is the man should pony up a new floor. These manufacturer all jumped on the same bandwagon when the first guy started putting these requirements into maintenance schedules. They saw an out thinking it would be impossible for many ppl to adhere to these requirements especially the ones who quote the higher brackets of 40 to 60 percent rh that live in arid zones.
To me I realize some checking is going to happen. It's the delamination that should not happen. My floor came waxed out of the carton. Even with semi-annual waxing it is still checked but my rh usually is around 23 to 26% in the winter months. But it is not falling apart.
I think ppl just expect to much from hardwood, like a perfect table top finish.
Not sure what you mean by this statement: "Distributor will not provide any of this information, including name of manufacturer?"
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Permalink Reply by Dan Schultz on
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I was commissioned by a retailer to inspect a floor that is falling apart. Somehow retailer doesn't know name of product? Only has item number. No name on box. No instructions in box.
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Permalink Reply by Floorguy on -
He sold the floor, but doesn't know anything about it??
That says a lot about the sales side of this industry, right there!
Blind leading the blind. -
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Permalink Reply by ken howard on -
Site conditions are the retailers responsibility, to determine if theyare accecptable and to supply homeowner and installer with the information and what is necessary to ensure that the guidelines are met.
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Permalink Reply by Stephen on
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Dan, I've installed a lot of generic bamboo out of boxes like that. No instructions or brand name on box, just stamped horizontal ro verticle Bamboo.
In that situation you describe I would just put forth the numbers/measurements field tests, cite industry requirements and let them argue it out.
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Created by Steve Simonson Nov 6, 2008 at 10:58am. Last updated by Steve Simonson Nov 6, 2008.
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