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Found a lot of this thread through google's cache function. It's not all there but if the other posts show up later I'll add them.

 

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consumer

 Post subject: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:55 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 19

Hi floor pros:

I am having problems with bona traffic peeling.

The young man who did the work claims it is my fault and likely do to a cleaning fluid that I used on the floors that prevented adhesion.

It is my understanding that there are inspectors that can come to look at the floor to assess the damage.

Does anyone here know what type of inspector can assess the peeling issue?



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Kinghawg98

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:19 pm 



Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:39 am
Posts: 2185
Location: Texas

sigh...you can find here, but you can't find an inspector? Sad...very sad..


http://www.nwfacp.org/findCp.aspx



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Tim CF

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:31 pm 



Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:22 am
Posts: 2292
Location: Quakertown, PA

Here's a link
http://www.afinspect.com/hardwood-floor ... 5Qodz2vXwg



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:04 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 19

Thank you for the links.

I appreciate the help.



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:13 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 19

Kinghawg98 wrote :
> sigh...you can find here, but you can't find an inspector? Sad...very
> sad..
>
>
> http://www.nwfacp.org/findCp.aspx

Kinghawg:

I appreciate the link, but I think you need to realize that I am not a home contractor by trade nor an attorney.

There are all types of inspectors and after googling the request, using numerous phraseology, there was nothing that was clearly defined as inspectors for wood flooring that is peeling.

Yes. I guess I am an ignorant, ditzy, babe in the woods, and it is apparently flamingly obvious that I am a ditzy babe in the woods. Perhaps that is why the guy who caused my floor to peel is trying to blame me for his damage.

Again, though, I do appreciate the link.

--------------

To Tim CF:

Thank, Tim, for being kind enough to provide the link without mentioning that I am an absolute naive idiot who can not find it on my own.



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Floorlayer2007

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:56 pm 



Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:39 am
Posts: 4763
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Consumer:

Why is it that women seem to be the brunt of unscrupulous hacks? Of course it's the floor guy's fault.
I just did a screen and re-coat using Poloplaz water-based poly (similar, yet better, than Traffic). I deep cleaned with my buffer and solution. Then you need to abrade, vacuum, tack, and apply a coat of poly. These are the steps needed to guarantee success.
I'm not saying it's wrong to make a mistake, but if your floor guy is blaming you instead of stepping up and claiming responsibility . . . Well, that just chaps my hide.

Charlie in Arizona



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:24 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 19

Floorlayer2007 wrote :
> Consumer:
>
> Why is it that women seem to be the brunt of unscrupulous hacks? Of course
> it's the floor guy's fault.
> I just did a screen and re-coat using Poloplaz water-based poly (similar,
> yet better, than Traffic). I deep cleaned with my buffer and solution.
> Then you need to abrade, vacuum, tack, and apply a coat of poly. These are
> the steps needed to guarantee success.
> I'm not saying it's wrong to make a mistake, but if your floor guy is
> blaming you instead of stepping up and claiming responsibility . . . Well,
> that just chaps my hide.
>
> Charlie in Arizona


Thank You Charlie in Arizona. Your post made me laugh.

I am fairly certain that the guy did not deep clean with solution because the stairs and three rooms were completed in two hours.

That seemed odd to me, but I was keeping my fingers crossed because the floor initially looked nice, after the recoat, until it started peeling and chipping at the slightest bump.

The inspector I talked to on the phone said something similar about hacks.



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KevinD

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:58 pm 



Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:21 pm
Posts: 456
Location: KNOXVILLE,TN

now now lets dont go calling defenseless people hacks. If he took the job as a screen and coat he should have know and explained to you the chance of failure. Im not saying either one of you is right and hiring a inspector is kinda jumping the gun imo unless the guy or you are being unreasonable. Most floor finishers will tell you a screen and coat can have problems because there is basically no way to tell how the floor has been maintained over the years while in service. What he should do is fix the problem which is probably a resand at this point and take the cost of the buff and coat off the price. It really should be sold that way to begin with.



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:35 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 19

KevinD wrote :
> now now lets dont go calling defenseless people hacks. If he took the
> job as a screen and coat he should have know and explained to you the
> chance of failure. Im not saying either one of you is right and hiring a
> inspector is kinda jumping the gun imo unless the guy or you are being
> unreasonable. Most floor finishers will tell you a screen and coat can
> have problems because there is basically no way to tell how the floor has
> been maintained over the years while in service. What he should do is fix
> the problem which is probably a resand at this point and take the cost of
> the buff and coat off the price. It really should be sold that way to
> begin with.

Hi Kevin:

I have given the contractor numerous opportunities to fix the issues. He refuses. When he came to give an estimate, I asked his opinion, initially. I did not want the mess and inconvenience of a sand to bare wood, but I told him that it was his call.

He assured me he could do the screen and recoat, no problem. I showed him the bottles of the products I used to clean the floors. I am the original homeowner. On my floor I use Bona cleaning products only. I like the fact that they are not toxic. He did not mention that his work might fail.

The contractor asked for and received a deposit that was more than the deposit required by law. He also received prompt payment upon completion of the work. I did not notice the issues immediately. At first the floor looked nice. When apprised of the issue he was verbally obnoxious.

At this point, I do not think it is safe to have him do any additional work.



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twaeker

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:30 pm 



Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 48

Floorlayer2007 wrote :
> Consumer:
>
> Why is it that women seem to be the brunt of unscrupulous hacks? Of course
> it's the floor guy's fault.
> I just did a screen and re-coat using Poloplaz water-based poly (similar,
> yet better, than Traffic). I deep cleaned with my buffer and solution.
> Then you need to abrade, vacuum, tack, and apply a coat of poly. These are
> the steps needed to guarantee success.
> I'm not saying it's wrong to make a mistake, but if your floor guy is
> blaming you instead of stepping up and claiming responsibility . . . Well,
> that just chaps my hide.
>
> Charlie in Arizona

Ridiculous.
1. What proof do you have that the one finish is better than the other? Abrasion tests?
2. There is never a 100% guarantee that a recoat will be successful. (Is that a Bona product you use to deep clean?) Even when the customer swears up and down they only used floor cleaner, they will never tell you if or when the cooking oil spilled and soaked into the grain, or what wax spilled where, etc., if they even know.

Contractor bears some blame for not warning about the invisible dangers. Beyond that, caveat emptor.



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Floorlayer2007

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:30 pm 



Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:39 am
Posts: 4763
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Consumer:

What state are you in?

Charlie in Arizona



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:16 am 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 19

Floorlayer2007 wrote :
> Consumer:
>
> What state are you in?
>
> Charlie in Arizona

I am in Lehigh valley, Pennsylvania.



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Floorlayer2007

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:12 am 



Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:39 am
Posts: 4763
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Near Lehighton? Doesn't Interestate 81 run through there? I used to hitchhike that road in the early 70's. Beautiful country.

Does PA still NOT require contractors to be licensed? There's not much recourse, I'm afraid, unless you take him to small claim's court.

Charlie in Arizona



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:03 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 19

Floorlayer2007 wrote :
> Near Lehighton? Doesn't Interestate 81 run through there? I used to
> hitchhike that road in the early 70's. Beautiful country.
>
> Does PA still NOT require contractors to be licensed? There's not much
> recourse, I'm afraid, unless you take him to small claim's court.
>
> Charlie in Arizona

Yes, Charlie, it is a great area for hiking it's the highlands and there is the water gap area. It is great for hiking and camping or just day trips. Nice waterfalls and there are great areas to kayak.

Yes, Pa just started getting tough on contractors in Pa.

I went to the state attorney general's site to file a complaint. At the the online site, and also spoke to someone by phone. They suggested contacting an attorney, too. I hate to be quick to sue, but I have contacted an attorney just to bounce things off him, and I am waiting for a call back from his office.

In PA now since 2009 there is a three strikes out rule, apparently. If the customer is deemed to have a valid complaint and the contractor has three unresolved complaints that require the customer to sue, the contractor can lose their license.

This contractor is in his early 20s and just starting out, so he has no unresolved complaints thus far. He makes a great impression, but he is really grumpy if there are any complaints.

According to the attorney generals office he included language in his contract that is not allowed by law. The language attempts to absolve him of certain call back responsibilities, which I just learned is not allowable language. The language also makes it so I can also collect attorney and court filing fees, if I win.

I initially liked this kid, but I am going to have to get tough.



Last edited by consumer on Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Kinghawg98

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:06 pm 



Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:39 am
Posts: 2185
Location: Texas

exactly why consumers should be ignored here.

They don't tell the whole story.

We don't know the whole story

Some poor lad gets destroyed via the internet for something that is only possibly their fault.

If it was a screen and coat as you say, then it can't be guaranteed. Give me a break on the "I gave him the option" line. That's poppycock and you know it. I don't recall the last time a customer said, "Well, I'd like a recoat, but I'd be ok with doing 4x the cost and 3x as long a process if you think so." And then just take whatever without a second quote or other information. C'mon get real.



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2

consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:15 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 15

Kinghawg98 wrote :
> exactly why consumers should be ignored here.
>
> They don't tell the whole story.
>
> We don't know the whole story
>
> Some poor lad gets destroyed via the internet for something that is only
> possibly their fault.
>
> If it was a screen and coat as you say, then it can't be guaranteed. Give
> me a break on the "I gave him the option" line. That's poppycock
> and you know it. I don't recall the last time a customer said, "Well,
> I'd like a recoat, but I'd be ok with doing 4x the cost and 3x as long a
> process if you think so." And then just take whatever without a
> second quote or other information. C'mon get real.


Kinghawg

Geez you're edgy. Well, according to the attorney general's office. He is the professional and he can turn down jobs, if he knows they will fail.

Also, his claim that I used wax on the floor is speculative, and if he suspected that, he could have turned down the job.

I work freelance and I turn down jobs all the time, if the customer has unrealistic expectations. Seems to me this guy knew the job would fail and thinks the language in his contract will protect him. Well, it does not.

He took the job, and now it's his responsibility to fix it.

Bottom line is because he put certain illegal strong-arm language in his contract, there is a strong possibility that I may be able to collect treble damages.

He claims to be the expert and apparently, he can not simply absolve himself of wrongdoing just because he thinks he can.

If you ain't an expert do not hold yourself out as one.

I have many times redone work for free that my clients were unhappy with. In fact, I offer that guarantee up front . In all my years of working, I have only had to redo a few jobs, but I did them. Stuff happens.

BTW: I had planned to contact the attorney generals office and an attorney prior to coming to this site. So it is not my presence here that is influencing my actions,

I only seem like a babe in the woods.

As far as people not telling the whole story. That is why they have court and one must take an oath to testify.



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Kinghawg98

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:25 pm 



Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:39 am
Posts: 2184
Location: Texas

Edgy, no, but the fact that you would even mention triple damages means you're not in it to be reasonable, you're in it for money and punishment, probably even a little spite too.

Small claims fine, but the AG and triple, now you're just a fine example of what is wrong with America. Why on EARTH would you feel entitled to that kind of money?

Rest assured, if you go that route, you will catch hell finding another contractor even wanting to touch your house. Best of luck to you.



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:30 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 15

Kinghawg98 wrote :
> Edgy, no, but the fact that you would even mention triple damages means
> you're not in it to be reasonable, you're in it for money and punishment,
> probably even a little spite too.
>
> Small claims fine, but the AG and triple, now you're just a fine example of
> what is wrong with America. Why on EARTH would you feel entitled to that
> kind of money?
>
> Rest assured, if you go that route, you will catch hell finding another
> contractor even wanting to touch your house. Best of luck to you.

Oh brother. Are you the kid who did my floors.

The guy could have avoided this whole thing himself. So don't place blame. I have given him several months to come back to fix things. I have not been quick to file complaints or sue.

BTW: I did get other estimates. This kid's estimate was the highest, but I picked him 'cause I liked him and his spiel, and he seemed competent. Other contractors also claimed they could do a recoat. So his claim was not special.

Again, whether or not I wanted to go for the whole resand thing is pointless and not relevant and speculative. He always had the right to turn down the job.

Treble damages was the attorney general's office's advise. I had no Idea his contract language was illegal. If I did not have to contact them, I would never have known that.

BTW: I have talked to many contractors and told them the same things I mentioned here. None have refused to do work at my house, and one said, he would even guarantee in writing that the floor will not peel, and if it does he will fix it no charge.

Seems like you are trying to scare consumers into silence by fibbing.



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Kinghawg98

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:55 pm 



Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:39 am
Posts: 2184
Location: Texas

Hardly.

I actually never had a re-coat fail and only had one re-sand in 7+ yrs running. The resand was because of a terrible move by a former business partner. He chose the wrong sealer for a job, ergo failure.

Of course other contractors claimed they could do a recoat. They were all going on your information. I am not saying that he did a perfect job, but you can't say its his fault in so much as it could have been any of those who came out. Nobody knows what you do at your house prior to arrival. I am not of the position that its your fault, or that you should live with it, but your method a sad commentary on today's world (as are his actions if they are indeed truthfully represented by you.) Oh and for what its worth, if a contractor says "I guarantee", well, that's a good reason to run away.

And no- the resand isn't pointless and speculative. You know darn well what happened, you cheaped out, got burned, now you want someone else to pay for your partial mistake. Sure, he could have walked away. Sure, he should have taken an extra step to improve chances (maybe he did..after all you don't know the process he used apparently) Sure, he should have mentioned that a recoat may fail (probably did...most homeowners conveniently would forget that part.) Besides- if you had multiple contractors in there one of them would have mentioned that a recoat can fail. Surely that would have piqued your interests...

Does it matter to your floor that the language is "illegal"? In other words- you contacted the AG and figured you could get treble damages because of wording, now you see dollar signs. Had you said, "I'm going to small claims for the amount of the floor," I likely wouldn't have said a peep. Your floor was obviously in such bad shape that you knew a re-sand would be smart, but you opted not to go that route (because of money, most likely.) Triple damages would put you AHEAD of where you were originally. That's not the point of suing someone. Let the AG teach him about contracts, why should you benefit financially?

And 2 BTW in the same post? Sure sounds like someone is exasperated and pulling at straws to make a case.

I suppose I could be totally wrong- you may be one of those rare homeowners that says "Here is a blank check, make it happen" but, I don't think so.



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buzz floor sanding

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:12 pm 



Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:27 pm
Posts: 139

consumer, get charlie to do it...he's on your side...i'm with kinghawk on this...



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:47 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 15

Kinghawg98 wrote :
> Nobody knows what you do at your house prior to arrival.

Kinghawgh:

I am getting an opportunity to vent. So I guess I should thank you. This is quite therapeutic.

Your statement is true, perhaps a guest spilled oil on the floor. And, it's true, maybe I am an inveterate pathological liar. I hear ya'.

Be that as it may, iIf there is no way for the contractor to guarantee work and if there is so much doubt. Then perhaps recoats should not be offered by any flooring guy.

> it, but your method a sad commentary on today's world (as are his actions
> if they are indeed truthfully represented by you.)

Oh brother. A lecture about the sad state of the world. Yeah, I guess it's my fault because I found out about my rights and now I am going to exercise that right. If you don't like the law here, you can always move to Thailand. I hear the laws are very lax there.


> if a contractor says "I guarantee", well, that's a good
> reason to run away.

I don't think so. I admire someone who is willing to put their words in writing. That says to me he is willing to stand behind his work. It is not a requirement for me because apparently that language is not needed, according to the AG. The contractor has a "duty" to cause no "harm."

> And no- the resand isn't pointless and speculative. You know darn well
> what happened, you cheaped out, got burned, now you want someone else to
> pay for your partial mistake.

Sorry, that's also rude and speculative. I did not cheap out, I was trying to avoid the mess and inconvenience of the sand to bare wood issue. It's a much longer process. And, yes, I wanted something that could be done in one day. So, sue me. How utterly selfish and moronic of me to want to have less inconvenience. And even if money was my primary goal. So what? Again, do not offer work that has a high probability of failure, if you are not willing to come back and repair the work.


>sure he should have taken an extra step to improve chances (maybe he did..after all
> you don't know the process he used apparently)

Well, I do know, because every contractor that has thus far given me estimates to repair this peeling has mentioned that it would take a minimum of four hours to properly recoat this floor with the solution and the buffing requirements.

My guy breezed through in two hours, talking on the phone while pushing the squeegee with one hand, and that time included moving some furniture. I did not see him use any wet solution on the floor. He only used a dry mop.

Sure, he should have
> mentioned that a recoat may fail (probably did...most homeowners
> conveniently would forget that part.)

Perhaps that is true. Again, It's totally possible I am a pathological liar. I am quite certain I can not convince you otherwise, so I will not bother. Still, if you know there is a strong possibility a job will fail than why bother to do it? Or alternatively put it in writing. That will make the homeowner pay attention.

Besides- if you had multiple
> contractors in there one of them would have mentioned that a recoat can
> fail. Surely that would have piqued your interests...

Nope, sorry. All said the floor was in good condition. Right now, the floor is in terrible condition. They were just somewhat dull.

> > Does it matter to your floor that the language is "illegal"?

Uhm, uh......yes. When you sign a contract, don't you expect it to be a legal contract, not filled with weasel words that confuse and diffuse.

In > other words- you contacted the AG and figured you could get treble damages
> because of wording, now you see dollar signs.

Well, okay, so I am going to go for treble damages if possible. Why shouldn't I. So sue me.

The floor guy was given numerous chances to fix things. He refused. I no longer want him at the house because he..... well sounds like you, angry and disgruntled. I drew that conclusion of not using him before learning of treble damages.

Yes. I am now hoping the attorney can get treble damages. Yes, I am angry because I have been inconvenienced by this man. Yes. If I am entitled to treble damages, I am going to go for it. Sorry, if that offends you. Why should it?

Had you said, "I'm
> going to small claims for the amount of the floor," I likely wouldn't
> have said a peep.

It's okay that your peeping. I believe in free speech. I can see that the thought of treble damages upsets you. Sorry, I think it is helpful information to have for both the consumer and the contractor, No?


> Your floor was obviously in such bad shape that you knewa re-sand would be smart, but you opted not to go that route
> (because of money, most likely.) Triple damages would put you AHEAD of where you were
> originally. That's not the point of suing someone. Let the AG teach him
> about contracts, why should you benefit financially?

I guess I am just lucky that the floor guy is a weasel and now he got caught. Yes. If I am truly entitled to treble damages. Then yes, it will put me ahead. Again, I guess I am just lucky.

> And 2 BTW in the same post? Sure sounds like someone is exasperated and
> pulling at straws to make a case.

I can not make a case, unless one exists. But thank you for assuming that I am so powerful that I can make a case where none exists. I am truly flattered.

> I suppose I could be totally wrong- you may be one of those rare homeowners
> that says "Here is a blank check, make it happen" but, I don't
> think so.

No. I never give anyone a blank check and say make it happen. I have extremely wealthy clients who would not be so ignorant as to do that for me. The most wealthy clients are all always having their assistants get estimates for the most cost effective QUALIFIED freelancer. I do not see anything wrong with that.

It just does not make sense to give someone a blank check for anything? I doubt Bill Gates gives blank checks to contractors.

Do you do that when you have someone do work. If so, I want to work for you.

I also have a bridge in Britain that I think you may like to buy. Geez.. Give me a break.

Thanks for letting me vent, but I won't be responding to you anymore. I have had my say.



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Floorlayer2007

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:00 pm 



Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:39 am
Posts: 4763
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Consumer:

I wasn't suggesting that you sue him. It's just another option, but not a good one.

The best way to handle this may also be the hardest way to handle it . . . You should go to the contractor and ask him to re-sand and finish your floor. Pay him the full price minus what you've already paid him. (Ask for sample boards showing the exact finish he'll be using before he does the work.)

Understand that his grumpiness is his frustration at himself for doing a poor job. I'm sure he's just like all of us on this forum in that we love working with wood and he really did want to do a good job for you. Sounds like he just lacked a bit of skill. Don't be too hard on him and you'll have an opportunity to help him learn from his mistake and feel better about himself. Direct him to this forum where he can better himself.

Just my opinion.

Charlie in Arizona



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:49 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 15

Floorlayer2007 wrote :
> Consumer:
>
> I wasn't suggesting that you sue him. It's just another option, but not a
> good one.
>
> The best way to handle this may also be the hardest way to handle it . . .
> You should go to the contractor and ask him to re-sand and finish your
> floor. Pay him the full price minus what you've already paid him. (Ask
> for sample boards showing the exact finish he'll be using before he does
> the work.)
>
> Understand that his grumpiness is his frustration at himself for doing a
> poor job. I'm sure he's just like all of us on this forum in that we love
> working with wood and he really did want to do a good job for you. Sounds
> like he just lacked a bit of skill. Don't be too hard on him and you'll
> have an opportunity to help him learn from his mistake and feel better
> about himself. Direct him to this forum where he can better himself.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Charlie in Arizona

Hi Charlie:

I hope I did not imply that it was your idea that I sue him. It was not,

The idea was suggested to me by the person I spoke to on the phone at the AGs office. She said that for every case that is reported there are 100s that are not. Typically they are older people who are not aware of the new laws pertaining to contractors.

In any case, this boy has been give the opportunity to correct the issue, repeatedly. He refuses and is quite nasty when he does so. His wife, his business partner, is the one who mentioned that their business contract absolves them of responsibility for this issue and she literally screamed at me on the phone.

Alas the contract does not absolve them.

It seems quite clear that he nor his wife want to improve their business skills.

I do not have the time to coddle him, any further.

Thanks all. For the opportunity to vent.



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hbrickman

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:56 pm 



Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:26 pm
Posts: 798
Location: Brickman Consulting-Massachusetts

This thread should be required reading for anyone who thinks that "screen and coats" are easy money.



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porefiller

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:50 pm 



Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:52 pm
Posts: 142
Location: Michigan

Howard,

I was just thinking the same thing. I will stick to my policy. NO GUARANTEE on anything that doesn't go down to bare wood. If recoat fails then the price of the recoat is taken off the sand and refinish cost minus materials (I'll give the labor free but not looking to throw Traffic around for free). I always include the complete sand and refinish cost with the buff and recoat estimate so everything is out there before we start. Everything is signed. Customer doesn't like the policy, then I'm not your guy. Sorry "consumer" but not every service offered in this country should be guaranteed especially when many factors cannot be known.

Sounds like this young kid was being cocky and overconfident and will learn as most of us do the hard way but going after him for triple is wrong (I'm with King on this part). WORST thing that should happen to this kid is "consumer" brings in another flooring contractor to sand and refinish and the kid has to pick up the tab. If he refuses to pay then go after him legally. This whole scenario sucks.



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Tongue in groover

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:03 pm 



Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:39 pm
Posts: 790

consumer, sorry to hear about your loser floor guy, The weird thing a similar situation happened recently with traffic in New hope.



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Floorlayer2007

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:45 pm 



Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:39 am
Posts: 4763
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Consumer:

You said "I hope I did not imply that it was your idea that I sue him."

Actually, I thought you thought that I thought that . . . ha,ha

Keep us informed of how this works out.

Charlie in Arizona



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Dale Rosilio

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:48 pm 



Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 633

I agree with Chuckles, Sue them all!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNzSYMHR ... page#t=17s



Last edited by Dale Rosilio on Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Genia Smith

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:50 pm 



Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:53 pm
Posts: 375
Location: www.accenthardwoodflooring.com

Mister KingHawg, You have proved yourself once again to be KING!



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biz

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:58 pm 



Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:51 pm
Posts: 304

IDK what happened to Frank but I think Kinghawg is correct.



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3

Floorlayer2007

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:23 am 



Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:39 am
Posts: 4763
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Biz answered correctly.

Charles (I mean . . . Frank) in New Joisey



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Terry

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:12 am 



Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:17 pm
Posts: 1024
Location: Ireland

For what its worth, assuming consumer is telling the truth, I think by not warning her the contractor is at fault and by not cleaning the floor the contractor is at fault and by not having something signed by her saying she had been warned and wanted to go ahead anyway the contractor is at fault.

And really sticking my neck on the line, I know if this was me or any of my franchisees we would go back and put it right whatever the cost and quite frankly I am horrified at the response this lady has received from some on this site.

Terry



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Kinghawg98

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:41 am 



Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:39 am
Posts: 2184
Location: Texas

Horrified Terry? That's a bit dramatic.

I'm pretty sure we all agree that it wasn't a job well done. I'm also sure that we can't take what a homeowner says on the internet as gospel truth...the triple contract amount is what is pathetic. The contractor isn't all that, but the homeowner isn't. For the record, a signed piece of paper doesn't mean a thing here. Scumbag lawyers and activist judges make sure of it.



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:08 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 15

Tongue in groover wrote :
> consumer, sorry to hear about your loser floor guy, The weird thing a
> similar situation happened recently with traffic in New hope.

Hi Tongue and Groover:

I am not surprised. I have been doing some research on the net to give to my attorney and this seems to be a common problem with Bona traffic, if an inexperienced floor guy does the work. Bona traffic is known to be difficult to work with and only an experienced floor guy should attempt to use it.

Poor prep is noted as the problem or that the floors were evaluated by an inexperienced flooring guy who promised more than he could deliver.

Personally, and I know this is speculative, I think this guy did not care whether or not it failed. He did not test the floors in th way that has been mentioned on line, or in the way other contractors had. I think he just hasn't been sued yet. So, he thinks he can take the money and run when the job fails.

There is a town named New hope the next county over. Is that the town? It's quite a ways from me, but it's possible it's the same floor guy. I can not mention his name until I file the lawsuit. Anything in a lawsuit is open record and can be posted online.

If it is the same town, Can you direct me to the thread from the person in New Hope, who had the same problem?



Last edited by consumer on Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:15 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 15

Terry wrote :
> For what its worth, assuming consumer is telling the truth, I think by not
> warning her the contractor is at fault and by not cleaning the floor the
> contractor is at fault and by not having something signed by her saying she
> had been warned and wanted to go ahead anyway the contractor is at fault.
>
> And really sticking my neck on the line, I know if this was me or any of my
> franchisees we would go back and put it right whatever the cost and quite
> frankly I am horrified at the response this lady has received from some on
> this site.
>
> Terry

Thank you, Terry.

No, I would not have bothered with the recoat if I had been told it was not guaranteed.

I have had other floor guys come out to give estimates on the sand and refinish needed to eliminate the peeling, and quite a few have told me that they have NEVER had a recoat fail, if the job was properly assessed prior to taking the job.

They, too, said they would be embarrassed if it failed and would fix it.

There are apparently tests to see if there will be an adhesion problem.



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:20 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 15

Kinghawg98 wrote :
> Horrified Terry? That's a bit dramatic.
>
> I'm pretty sure we all agree that it wasn't a job well done. I'm also sure
> that we can't take what a homeowner says on the internet as gospel
> truth...the triple contract amount is what is pathetic. The contractor
> isn't all that, but the homeowner isn't. For the record, a signed piece
> of paper doesn't mean a thing here. Scumbag lawyers and activist judges
> make sure of it.

It is true, Kinghawg an contract that contains illegal requirements is not worth the paper it is written on. Apparently, attempting to confuse or hoodwink someone by putting illegal language in a contract makes the contract totally worthless.

Thank goodness, too. Because the AG's office said that contractor fraud is a growing problem. Particularly with the elderly.

The fact that you feel I am not entitled to treble damages does not bother me a twit. I can totally understand why the thought upsets you. After all the inconvenience I have been put through by this floor guy. I have no qualms about collecting any money due me. He had a chance to fix things. He refused.

But forewarned is forearmed.

BTW: If a contractor fails to correct damage when dealing with an elderly person. The contractor is also on the hook for treble damages, whether or not the contract is valid. It is considered elder abuse. Just so you know.

And if that scares the bejesus out of you.......well it shouldn't......Not if you are an honest competent contractor.



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:34 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 15

porefiller wrote :
> Howard,
>
> I was just thinking the same thing. I will stick to my policy. NO
> GUARANTEE on anything that doesn't go down to bare wood. If recoat fails
> then the price of the recoat is taken off the sand and refinish cost minus
> materials (I'll give the labor free but not looking to throw Traffic around
> for free). I always include the complete sand and refinish cost with the
> buff and recoat estimate so everything is out there before we start.
> Everything is signed. Customer doesn't like the policy, then I'm not your
> guy. Sorry "consumer" but not every service offered in this
> country should be guaranteed especially when many factors cannot be known.
>
> Sounds like this young kid was being cocky and overconfident and will learn
> as most of us do the hard way but going after him for triple is wrong (I'm
> with King on this part). WORST thing that should happen to this kid is
> "consumer" brings in another flooring contractor to sand and
> refinish and the kid has to pick up the tab. If he refuses to pay then go
> after him legally. This whole scenario sucks.

Hi Porefiller:

This boy was given the opportunity to fix it or to pay for someone else to fix it, if he did not know how to fix it. His response and his partner wife's response is to scream at me, berate me and to refuse to even assess the damage. He said I was too picky/fussy about a little peeling. The point is as soon as water hits these peeling floors, it's gonna' get worse and worse. I am an amatuer and I know that.

At this point, I do not feel guilty about taking treble damages, if my attorney tells me to do so,.



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Floorlayer2007

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:07 pm 



Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:39 am
Posts: 4763
Location: Prescott, Arizona

. . . plus court costs and attorney fees.

Charlie in Arizona



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Crowsflooring

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:58 pm 



Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:43 pm
Posts: 341

WOW. This has been a great post...Consumer thanks for hanging in there with your continued responses..How many sq ft did you have recoated?



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Crowsflooring

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:04 pm 



Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:43 pm
Posts: 341

Consumer I disagree with your comment about your issue being a common problem with Bona Traffic. Bona is probably the most widely used water base finish out there, hence more exposure...Don't blame the product



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Kinghawg98

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:04 pm 



Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:39 am
Posts: 2184
Location: Texas

consumer wrote :
> It is true, Kinghawg an contract that contains illegal requirements is not worth the
> paper it is written on. Apparently, attempting to confuse or hoodwink someone by
> putting illegal language in a contract makes the contract totally worthless.
>
> The fact that you feel I am not entitled to treble damages does not bother me a twit.
> I can totally understand why the thought upsets you. After all the inconvenience
> I have been put through by this floor guy. I have no qualms about collecting any
> money due me. He had a chance to fix things. He refused.
>
> BTW: If a contractor fails to correct damage when dealing with an elderly person.
> The contractor is also on the hook for treble damages, whether or not the contract is
> valid. It is considered elder abuse. Just so you know.
>
> And if that scares the bejesus out of you.......well it shouldn't......Not if you are
> an honest competent contractor.

I thought you were done with me...?

Nice attempt at a slam there, its cute. Rude, useless and idiotic, but cute nonetheless. As I said, I've had one issue on a job. I was the one that would go the extra mile to make things swell the first time around, explain to a customer how the job was going to work, etc. We spent little in advertising- word of mouth was king for us so screwing up or screwing someone just doesn't work. The elderly, though, I abused the hell out of them. Amazing how you keyed in on that. I charged them 5x what I would charge a young girl wearing a loose, boob showing shirt. Then, I did shitty sub-par work- I mean, the old people can't see anyway. Besides, they will die soon, so that finish doesn't have to last too long. Just thin it in half, it looks good enough for them. The best part of working for old people, when they weren't looking (mostly they were just sleeping in their recliners "watching" Judge Wapner, Perry Mason or Wheel of Fortune) you could rifle through all their stuff and usually make out with thousands of dollars in gold jewelry, coins, cash, and even antiques! Then, they would wake up around 11am and offer to make you lunch! Yea, I love me some old people...but now that you told me I can be on the hook for treble.....crap! I have to rethink everything!!!!

Do whatever it takes to make you feel better. I know your floors just ruined your life and extra money would sure make it better. /sarcam I mean, its not really about the money anyway, its all about proving a point, right?

Good luck to you.

Oh, I almost forgot. Its doubtful that its the finish's fault. Just ask the manufacturer...



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porefiller

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:10 pm 



Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:52 pm
Posts: 142
Location: Michigan

Consumer,

If you gave him the chance to fix it or pay for someone else to fix it and his actual response was to scream at you as you say well then he will have to deal with the legal consequences. I don't believe in the motto that the customer is always right but you do have to try to work things out. Sounds like a young kid without much business experience.



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Views: 60

Replies to This Discussion

4

Terry

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:01 pm 



Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:17 pm
Posts: 1025
Location: Ireland

Kinghawg98 wrote :
> consumer wrote :
> > It is true, Kinghawg an contract that contains illegal requirements is not worth
> the
> > paper it is written on. Apparently, attempting to confuse or hoodwink someone
> by
> > putting illegal language in a contract makes the contract totally worthless.
> >
> > The fact that you feel I am not entitled to treble damages does not bother me a
> twit.
> > I can totally understand why the thought upsets you. After all the
> inconvenience
> > I have been put through by this floor guy. I have no qualms about collecting
> any
> > money due me. He had a chance to fix things. He refused.
> >
> > BTW: If a contractor fails to correct damage when dealing with an elderly
> person.
> > The contractor is also on the hook for treble damages, whether or not the
> contract is
> > valid. It is considered elder abuse. Just so you know.
> >
> > And if that scares the bejesus out of you.......well it shouldn't......Not if
> you are
> > an honest competent contractor.
>
> I thought you were done with me...?
>
> Nice attempt at a slam there, its cute. Rude, useless and idiotic, but cute
> nonetheless. As I said, I've had one issue on a job. I was the one that would go
> the extra mile to make things swell the first time around, explain to a customer how
> the job was going to work, etc. We spent little in advertising- word of mouth was
> king for us so screwing up or screwing someone just doesn't work. The elderly,
> though, I abused the hell out of them. Amazing how you keyed in on that. I charged
> them 5x what I would charge a young girl wearing a loose, boob showing shirt. Then,
> I did shitty sub-par work- I mean, the old people can't see anyway. Besides, they
> will die soon, so that finish doesn't have to last too long. Just thin it in half,
> it looks good enough for them. The best part of working for old people, when they
> weren't looking (mostly they were just sleeping in their recliners
> "watching" Judge Wapner, Perry Mason or Wheel of Fortune) you could rifle
> through all their stuff and usually make out with thousands of dollars in gold
> jewelry, coins, cash, and even antiques! Then, they would wake up around 11am and
> offer to make you lunch! Yea, I love me some old people...but now that you told me I
> can be on the hook for treble.....crap! I have to rethink everything!!!!
>
> Do whatever it takes to make you feel better. I know your floors just ruined your
> life and extra money would sure make it better. /sarcam I mean, its not really about
> the money anyway, its all about proving a point, right?
>
> Good luck to you.
>
> Oh, I almost forgot. Its doubtful that its the finish's fault. Just ask the
> manufacturer...


And I was being dramatic. pot, kettle and black King.

No fan of Bona but we all agree not there fault this time.

Terry



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Kinghawg98

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:17 pm 



Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:39 am
Posts: 2186
Location: Texas

Terry wrote :

> And I was being dramatic. pot, kettle and black King.
>
> No fan of Bona but we all agree not there fault this time.
>
> Terry

Terry,

You were being dramatic. I was being a sarcastic ass with the old people thing.

See the difference?

-Greg



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:18 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 19

Kinghawg98 wrote :
I was being a sarcastic ass with the old people thing.
>
> -Greg

Kinghawgh:

Well, I see we agree on something.

All the men I have ever met in or from Texas have been bigger dramatic "sarcastic asses." than any arses I have ever met anywhere else. Are they all like that in Texas???????

Now Ireland. The men tend to be polite with a large dose of integrity. I really liked Ireland.

I know, I am being a sarcastic arse too, I am just trying to get some rapport going here. But really as long as your SUV doesn't make your arse look big, why worry! ;)



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Kinghawg98

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:04 pm 



Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:39 am
Posts: 2186
Location: Texas

consumer wrote :
> Kinghawg98 wrote :
> I was being a sarcastic ass with the old people thing.
> >
> > -Greg
>
> Kinghawgh:
>
> Well, I see we agree on something.
>
> All the men I have ever met in or from Texas have been bigger dramatic
> "sarcastic asses." than any arses I have ever met anywhere else. Are
> they all like that in Texas???????
>
> Now Ireland. The men tend to be polite with a large dose of integrity. I really
> liked Ireland.
>
> I know, I am being a sarcastic arse too, I am just trying to get some rapport going
> here. But really as long as your SUV doesn't make your arse look big, why worry! ;)


Yes, we're all sarcastic asses in Texas at all times. Actually, not- just when liberals come along demanding things they don't deserve. I mean, that attitude flies somewhat in Austin, but the rest of Texas, well, we'll string you up for that kind of stupid talk.

So, you really do dislike all men, don't you? I mean....nudge nudge wink wink...



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:46 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 31

Crowsflooring wrote :
> WOW 1800 sq ft...If I recall, you said he prep it in a couple of hours
> then started coating. That job wouldv'e taken me 2 days


Crows'

That is what I thought. Even with one coat. I wasn't watching him the entire time, but I don't recall hearing a sander going for any extended time. I did hear it briefly though.

Someone else who used to do contracting, laughed and said he knew some guys that used to run a electric drills and screwdrivers periodically to make he homeowner think they were really working.

Anyway, the floor initially looked pretty



Last edited by consumer on Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:49 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 31

Custom wrote :
> consumer,
>
> you might want to check and see if it is worth suing the kid. If the kid
> doesn't have an long time established business, he could just close shop
> and you get stuck with attorney fees. I don't know many floor sanders in
> their early 20s that would have thousands of dollars in a bank account.


Custom

I did ask the attorney about that. He said even if he declares bankruptcy I will eventually get the money.

Also, the guy owns property.



Last edited by consumer on Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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biz

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:49 pm 



Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:51 pm
Posts: 308

Kinghawg98 wrote :
> consumer wrote :
>
> > I think they still hang horse thieve in Texas. They don't cotton to property
> theft
> > OR THEFT BY FRAUD to well, neither. Here is the penal code section discussing
> it
> >
>
> > Kinhawhg, are you sure you are still comfy in Texas.
>
>
> Absolutely I'm very comfy here! I am a big fan of the castle doctrine as well. And
> the option to carry concealed. Hopefully they pass open carry. That would be nice.
>
> Oh and we don't hang. We like our sodium thiopenal and potassium chloride....or we
> just take you out to the woods and you know, you get "lost"


Hell yeah, I'd move to Texas in a heartbeat. They know what they're doing, just compare their financial situation to california or NY or even Michigan. My state's pretty good as far as that goes too but jeez, no state income tax?? Sounds dreamy. I heard that some liberal nutjob pundit claimed that Rick Perry was "poaching" jobs from other states with their fiscal policies... Fekkin libs I swear. Keynes was a dumbass people, WAKE UP! This reminds me I really need to get my lifetime permit to carry...

E in Ind-E



Last edited by biz on Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:51 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 31

biz wrote :
> Hell yeah, I'd move to Texas in a heartbeat. They know what they're doing,
> just compare their financial situation to california or NY or even
> Michigan. My state's pretty good as far as that goes too but jeez, no state
> income tax?? Sounds dreamy. I heard that some liberal nutjob pundit claimed
> that Rick Perry was "poaching" jobs from other states with their
> fiscal policies... Fekkin libs I swear. Keynes was a dumbass people, WAKE
> UP! This reminds me I really need to get my lifetime permit to carry...
>
> E in Ind-E

Biz:

It's easy to get a permit to carry in PA, too.



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:04 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 31

Dale Rosilio wrote :
> I agree with Chuckles, Sue them all!!!!
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNzSYMHR ... page#t=17s


Dale:

I found your link in another thread. Initially I was afraid to click the link 'cause I thought it might contain a trojan. But I did use the link in the other thread.

I found photos of your work and tongue and groovers work at the site. Nice work guys. Reeeally nice. The floors look so level and sharp.

I need an expert opinion, so if you and anyone else can chime in I would appreciate the input. Presently I have white oak floors with no stain. I am thinking of going darker. Like the floor in this photograph at your site.

http://www.flooringinstaller.com/photo/ ... ntext=user

What color stain is on that floor?

Also, what do y'all think of going darker instead of staying natural? Some contractors said darker is out dated. Others say a lot of people like the darker colors. What do you find in your work?



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Dale Rosilio

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:20 pm 



Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 645

Consumer,

A trojan? LOL It is amusing to see how paranoid we've become as a society these days..........

Anyhow, that picture is natural, 1 coat of VerMeister Aqua Tenax and 3 coats of Idro 2k waterbase finish. The wood is Tigerwood and is naturally that color.


As far as staining White Oak goes, do what you like, I/ we don't have to live with it YOU DO. I feel staining is a personal preference, what I like you may not like and vice-versa. English Chestnut might looked good if you want some "reddish" tones or for a more aged look try 2pt Cherry, 2pts colonial maple and 1 pt early american as we just did on a 4" wide White Oak job this week.......

Have fun and as Sol said Sue em all!!!!!



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:23 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 31

Thank you for the suggestions, dale.



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Tongue in groover

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:27 pm 



Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:39 pm
Posts: 794

Consumer,
Please curb the accolades to Dale...if his head gets any bigger he will float away:) Thank you for the kind words.

Than pic of Dales is Tigerwood, there is no stain on it. This is the natural color of that species.

Some guys will tell you natural is the way to go so they don’t have to stain. White oak is darker then red oak and does look nice in a natural state. We just installed 1800 sq ft of 5" WO and finished it 2 parts cherry to one part natural and it looks sweet. White oak stains differently than red oak, any red in the stain will be cut by the white oaks natural color so our floor isn’t a strong red. Make sure you see samples on your floor prepped the way it will be once its refinished to make a stain choice.

Sorry I see that the fat head had answer your questions:)lol



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Dale Rosilio

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:32 pm 



Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 645

Just trying to grow into a Stetson so I can Move to Tex-ass ;)


Btw: I thought you was working today so you could play hookie on Monday?



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Tongue in groover

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:36 pm 



Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:39 pm
Posts: 794

I cant start till 1pm cuz thats when the owners are leaving for vaca. So why your polishing your hardwood, I will be installing mine:)



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Dale Rosilio

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:37 pm 



Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 645

Btw: Groovero,

I got that stair job, bottom half 5 new left return treads w/ starter tread in Braz cherry, as well as the upper closed treads. The bottom half is closed at this time but we're removing the existing rail/ spindle system to accomodate the new open system and installing new rail/ spindle system volute/ rosettes and all....Nice job



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twaeker

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:38 pm 



Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 50

I think this person is full of shit. And a narcissist. Supposedly going to spend $10-20k on lawyers for a $6k refinish. Right. And then, because the floor was already worn, (thats why it needed a recoat), damages won't be the full cost anyway. Since the poster can't say with any detail what the contractor did or didn't do, it's up to the poster to prove that a recoat would work. Any knowledgeable floor expert will say on the stand that there is no 100% guarantee on recoats. All the finish manufacturers will say the same. And why couldn't this floor be saved? Just buff the new finish off and start over.

Contractors fault for not warning the dangers and possible shoddy work. Actual damages are little more than the money the poster paid him + some for furniture moving. But this person has been on the DIY sites and heard that Traffic is too difficult to use, so he obviously knows best.



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Tongue in groover

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:49 pm 



Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:39 pm
Posts: 794

Good Boy!! We may have to start calling u stairmaster :)



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Dale Rosilio

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:59 pm 



Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 645

with where this thread was headed I was shooting for stainmaster ;)



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Dale Rosilio

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:00 pm 



Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 645

I'd love to stick around but I have to go polish my wood =D



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:01 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 31

Tongue in groover wrote :
> Consumer,
> Please curb the accolades to Dale...if his head gets any bigger he will
> float away:) Thank you for the kind words.
>
> Than pic of Dales is Tigerwood, there is no stain on it. This is the
> natural color of that species.
>
> Some guys will tell you natural is the way to go so they don’t have to
> stain. White oak is darker then red oak and does look nice in a natural
> state. We just installed 1800 sq ft of 5" WO and finished it 2 parts
> cherry to one part natural and it looks sweet. White oak stains differently
> than red oak, any red in the stain will be cut by the white oaks natural
> color so our floor isn’t a strong red. Make sure you see samples on your
> floor prepped the way it will be once its refinished to make a stain
> choice.
>
> Sorry I see that the fat head had answer your questions:)lol

Tongue in groover:

Thanks for the added information. You and Dale both had great looking work.

Dana



Last edited by consumer on Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:17 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 31

twaeker wrote :
> I think this person is full of shit. And a narcissist. Supposedly going to
> spend $10-20k on lawyers for a $6k refinish. Right. And then, because the
> floor was already worn, (thats why it needed a recoat), damages won't be
> the full cost anyway. Since the poster can't say with any detail what the
> contractor did or didn't do, it's up to the poster to prove that a recoat
> would work. Any knowledgeable floor expert will say on the stand that there
> is no 100% guarantee on recoats. All the finish manufacturers will say the
> same. And why couldn't this floor be saved? Just buff the new finish off
> and start over.
>
> Contractors fault for not warning the dangers and possible shoddy work.
> Actual damages are little more than the money the poster paid him + some
> for furniture moving. But this person has been on the DIY sites and heard
> that Traffic is too difficult to use, so he obviously knows best.



Twaeker:

Geesh you sound angrier than a gator with his mouth duct taped closed. I can see I tweeked your ego.

Are you a shrink, too? I thought you were a contractor.

Anyway you must be one heck of a shrink that can diagnose someone as a narcissist online based on a handful of posts. It's my understanding that a narcissistic disorder is pretty difficult to diagnose and requires extensive examination by a shrink.

But I do know that misplaced cockiness and confidence,and refusal to admit error, are some of the persistent symptoms they look for, when attempting to diagnose a narcissist. Still, I am definitely not qualified to make such a diagnosis, even after extensive contact.

In any case, 20 grand for legal fees. Whaaaat?

What kinda' lawyers do you know. Mine is not charging anywhere near 20 grand for the case, geesh. You need to start getting estimates before hiring your next attorney if you have ever been charged that much to defend a contractor dispute.

BTW: The lawyer thinks the case is an easy win although he cautioned that no case is ever a slam dunk.

Why?

The floor guy's contract is void because of the weasel words he included, and he damaged my property. End of story.

Sorry if that bothers but I think knowing the rules of law is good lesson here for both consumers and contractors alike.

I guess the guy just couldn't hide his true persona.

The lawyer will give him one last chance to pay the repair costs and his consult fee, prior to filing. He no longer has the option to do the repair himself. The lawyer advised me not to let him back on the property.

And yes. I am going for treble damages, if he won't, and I can get it. It was the lawyer's advice to do so.

Dana



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russ1979

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:38 pm 



Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:03 pm
Posts: 134
Location: london

consumer wrote :
> twaeker wrote :
> > I think this person is full of shit. And a narcissist. Supposedly going to
> > spend $10-20k on lawyers for a $6k refinish. Right. And then, because the
> > floor was already worn, (thats why it needed a recoat), damages won't be
> > the full cost anyway. Since the poster can't say with any detail what the
> > contractor did or didn't do, it's up to the poster to prove that a recoat
> > would work. Any knowledgeable floor expert will say on the stand that there
> > is no 100% guarantee on recoats. All the finish manufacturers will say the
> > same. And why couldn't this floor be saved? Just buff the new finish off
> > and start over.
> >
> > Contractors fault for not warning the dangers and possible shoddy work.
> > Actual damages are little more than the money the poster paid him + some
> > for furniture moving. But this person has been on the DIY sites and heard
> > that Traffic is too difficult to use, so he obviously knows best.
>
>
>
> Twaeker:
>
> Geesh you sound angrier than a gator with his mouth duct taped closed. I can see I
> tweeked your ego.
>
> Are you a shrink, too? I thought you were a contractor.
>
> Anyway you must be one heck of a shrink that can diagnose someone as a narcissist
> online based on a handful of posts. It's my understanding that a narcissistic
> disorder is pretty difficult to diagnose and requires extensive examination by a
> shrink.
>
> But I do know that misplaced cockiness and confidence,and refusal to admit error,
> are some of the persistent symptoms they look for, when attempting to diagnose a
> narcissist. Still, I am definitely not qualified to make such a diagnosis, even
> after extensive contact.
>
> In any case, 20 grand for legal fees. Whaaaat?
>
> What kinda' lawyers do you know. Mine is not charging anywhere near 20 grand for
> the case, geesh. You need to start getting estimates before hiring your next
> attorney if you have ever been charged that much to defend a contractor dispute.
>
> BTW: The lawyer thinks the case is an easy win although he cautioned that no case is
> ever a slam dunk.
>
> Why?
>
> The floor guy's contract is void because of the weasel words he included, and he
> damaged my property. End of story.
>
> Sorry if that bothers but I think knowing the rules of law is good lesson here for
> both consumers and contractors alike.
>
> I guess the guy just couldn't hide his true persona.
>
> The lawyer will give him one last chance to pay the repair costs and his consult fee,
> prior to filing. He no longer has the option to do the repair himself. The lawyer
> advised me not to let him back on the property.
>
> And yes. I am going for treble damages, if he won't, and I can get it. It was
> the lawyer's advice to do so.
>
> Dana


treble damages says it all.
I wonder why the lawyer is telling you that.!!
I guess some people like to work hard for the nice things in life. You've obvously have been down this route before.
your clearly a bad judge of character, you picked this guy to come in and do the works.



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Kinghawg98

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:44 pm 



Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:39 am
Posts: 2189
Location: Texas

Oh Dana...you miss the point. Sad. Ah well.


You never did answer my question...



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biz

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:16 pm 



Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:51 pm
Posts: 308

There's a small part of this that doesn't quite add up to me, you claim he never warned you that this could fail or that there was no guarantee, yet you keep mentioning this "weasely" language in his contract, so this leads me to conclude that you didn't read the contract (because if you did you would have then read that there was in fact no guarantee) What am I missing here? I know you probably can't post a copy of the contract but I'm curious at this point exactly what this language said. That is very sad when someone who doesn't read contracts is considered or assumed to be the victim, no matter what their age. (If that is in fact what happened here) Thanks lawyers, thanks a lot.



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Dale Rosilio

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:56 pm 



Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 645

I won't take sides in this issue because we do only have one side to base an opinion on and isn't fair to her or her contractor. At any rate I do find Dana's grammatical abilities refreshing as well as her abilities to trade barbs here.....The entertainment value is priceless............

Also Dana, thanks for the kind words =D



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:10 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 31

biz wrote :
> There's a small part of this that doesn't quite add up to me, you claim he
> never warned you that this could fail or that there was no guarantee, yet
> you keep mentioning this "weasely" language in his contract, so
> this leads me to conclude that you didn't read the contract (because if
> you did you would have then read that there was in fact no guarantee) What
> am I missing here? I know you probably can't post a copy of the contract
> but I'm curious at this point exactly what this language said. That is very
> sad when someone who doesn't read contracts is considered or assumed to be
> the victim, no matter what their age. (If that is in fact what happened
> here) Thanks lawyers, thanks a lot.

--------------------

Biz:

You are making an awful lot of assumptions, about the parts of the contract that make the contract null, none of which are accurate. There is more than simply the weasel words that nullified this bonehead's contract.

There was language in the contract that was confusing legalese and pointless. I read the contract but that paragraph was so convoluted that I needed an attorney to decipher it. I am not an attorney, and I don't even play one on TV. But I am glad I sought the advise of one.


-------------------------
Kinghawg:

What question did I refuse to answer? I only answer valid questions.

But here's a question for you......Do you think my SUV makes my backside look big?

----------

Dale:

You are welcome, and same goes for your kind words. :)



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biz

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:50 pm 



Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:51 pm
Posts: 308

consumer wrote :
> biz wrote :
> > There's a small part of this that doesn't quite add up to me, you claim he
> > never warned you that this could fail or that there was no guarantee, yet
> > you keep mentioning this "weasely" language in his contract, so
> > this leads me to conclude that you didn't read the contract (because if
> > you did you would have then read that there was in fact no guarantee) What
> > am I missing here? I know you probably can't post a copy of the contract
> > but I'm curious at this point exactly what this language said. That is very
> > sad when someone who doesn't read contracts is considered or assumed to be
> > the victim, no matter what their age. (If that is in fact what happened
> > here) Thanks lawyers, thanks a lot.
>
> --------------------
>
> Biz:
>
> You are making an awful lot of assumptions, about the parts of the contract that make
> the contract null, none of which are accurate. There is more than simply the weasel
> words that nullified this bonehead's contract.
>
> There was language in the contract that was confusing legalese and pointless. I read
> the contract but that paragraph was so convoluted that I needed an attorney to
> decipher it. I am not an attorney, and I don't even play one on TV. But I am
> glad I sought the advise of one.


No, I'm not making an ass out of u or me. ;) I'm asking for clarification because that part of this situation didn't make sense, now that you've clarified it does make more sense so thank you. I wish you could post that paragraph you speak of, I'd like to see it. Seems like there should be some language that one could use in a contract that wouldn't be weasely or illegal that would both clearly spell out the risk and cover the contractor's ass. We do small test spots in inconspicuous areas to test the strength of the bond. It sounds to me like if this guy had done that your floor would have instantly been ruled out as a candidate for a recoat. I've had a lot of test spots fail and save me from a situation like this.

Earlier you mentioned that you showed him the bottles of cleaner you used, and that you use only bona products. Could you post a pic of those bottles or tell us the exact name of the bona product you've been using?



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Glenn/SFC

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:57 pm 



Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:07 am
Posts: 946

I've been following this thread and it has been amusing. However, I think it may be time for consumer to exit stage left and get on with her life.

If what she says is true, and this is not all made up for our entertainment, then she is probably owed the money she paid. She is not, in my opinion, entitled to receive a benefit for her inconvenience or an enrichment over and above her actual losses. Lawyers have a term for this, similar to unjust enrichment, but I can't recall what it is.

The contract she has with the contractor and the jurisdiction will determine what damage awards can be sought. If treble damages were allowed to be imposed on all contract services everywhere, then there would be few people left in service industries.



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Dale Rosilio

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:07 pm 



Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 645

Glenn,

Treble Damages are for Willful negligence and they'd have to prove that the failure was due to the contractors willful violation of normal procedures and probably tough to prove. At any rate this contractor will, if he has common sense, will re-examine his approach to this aspect of the work.....



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:27 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 31

Glenn/SFC wrote :
> I've been following this thread and it has been amusing. However, I think
> it may be time for consumer to exit stage left and get on with her life.

Hi glen:

I am glad you were amused. I have been, too. Sounds though as if you are trying to shoo me off the board.

I guess I would prefer to keep consumers in the dark about their rights if I were an unscrupulous contractor.

Personally, Glen, with your attitude as expressed here, I think it's time for you to exit stage left from the contractor business before you run into someone who really knows their rights and truly has no qualms about breaking your bank using all their legal skills and knowledge, simply 'cause you pissed him off.


> If what she says is true, and this is not all made up for our
> entertainment, then she is probably owed the money she paid. She is not, in
> my opinion, entitled to receive a benefit for her inconvenience or an
> enrichment over and above her actual losses. Lawyers have a term for this,
> similar to unjust enrichment, but I can't recall what it is.


Yes, Glen, they do. And you are right, people can sue for actual damages and can not sue for enrichment. Unless.......the law says they can. And, in my state, if certain contract violations exist, the consumer can ask for treble damages.

So, in my state, treble damages are allowed if the contract is null, as determined by new stricter laws instituted recently.

I can totally understand why certain types of people would not want their customers to know about treble damages. That go beyond the need to establish "willful negligence." That is not a requirement if certain violations exist.

> The contract she has with the contractor and the jurisdiction will
> determine what damage awards can be sought. If treble damages were allowed
> to be imposed on all contract services everywhere, then there would be few
> people left in service industries.

Glen, I think the contractors that would be left in business would be the honest contractors. And, the fewer contractors out their the better it is for the good contractors. They can charge profitable rates, with less competition. It's basic supply and demand.

Personally, If I were a contractor, I would want to put all the unscrupulous ones out of business because It would certainly improve my bottom line. Again, it's a supply and demand thing.

I have a customer satisfaction guarantee for all my work. If I feel that a job disables me from REALISTICALLY providing that guarantee. I do not take the job.

That's how it should work with floor recoats. If you can't guarantee success and don't want to make it right. Turn down the job.

Otherwise it could easily turn into a racket, where the floor guy takes a recoat stipulating that he might later have to sand and redo at an additional charge if recoat fails

That would set consumers up for fraud on a regular basis because at that point the contractor could purposely screw up the recoat just to get the additional money for the sand to bare wood whether or not it was needed.

BTW: I have witnesses who will testify to the condition of the floors. It was good, with only the topcoat getting dull. Now it is a mess.

So, if my floor guy is posting here using the name, Glen and wallowing in wishful thinking...... Boo!

Boo, because some of the things also make my floor guys behavior possibly a criminal violation, and if my guy gets me too angry, I may go that route.



7

consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:20 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 37

Kinghawg98 wrote :
> Dana-
>
> You are a grade A bitch. Every time someone does not agree, you rail into
> a personal attack. Pretty pathetic.
>
> Probably guilt on your part, knowing you're not deserving of the triple
> damages.
>
> My unanswered question was about your hatred for men...
>
> -Greg

----------------------

Kinghawh:

You appear to be delusional. I have been very friendly here, despite attacks. I have tried to use humor to diffuse the anger from some of the most likely incompetent contractors here who have been referring to me as a liar or greedy or whatever since posting.

I think you feel guilty as you should.

As for your inane question. Do you hate all your customers and consider them an easy mark?

On most message boards referring to other posters as a "bitch" or "liar" or implying that you take people into the woods and shoot them, if they don't like your work, is grounds for being banned.

But I am glad that you are showing your true colors.



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:30 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 37

Glenn/SFC wrote :
> Quite frankly, I posted to see what kind of response I would get to my
> reasonable opinion that I believe unjust enrichment is wrong. Your response
> reveals to me someone who has been wronged and is out to get her pound of
> flesh and ruin someone's livelihood along the way.
>
> You don't know me from a hole in the wall and I don't know you or do I have
> firsthand knowledge of your relationship with the contractor. But, if the
> way you have presented your problem to the contractor is in anyway like you
> have behaved here, then I am not at all surprised that you could not work
> this out with him. Your words in response to me of "before you run
> into someone who really knows their rights and truly has no qualms about
> breaking your bank using all their legal skills and knowledge, simply
> 'cause you pissed him off"...proves my point. You may be acting
> unreasonably.
>
> I am sorry that this contractor did not do right by you, but it is time for
> you to settle down and get off this professional board. We have learned a
> lot from you, however, and we thank you for that.

----


I doubt that was your reason for posting, Greg. But I will not go so far as to call you a liar.

If you have actually read the posts. You can easily see, that is if you truly are a reasonable guy, and if you are intelligent and capable of understanding the consumer's legal rights, that I am not seeking unjust enrichment.

In legal terms, and please try to follow, and if you do not understand, please contact an attorney, I have been "harmed" by a contractor, and now he has to make it right. Because he initially sought to hoodwink me, now I am entitled to treble damages.

I also have the right to refuse to allow him back in the house. I have been screamed at, curse at, and accused of being a liar by the moron who ruined my floors. I would be a moron to go anywhere near him at this point.

In addition, some of his behavior in interacting with me, may enable me to press criminal charges. I can see that scares you, as it should.

See, in the contractor biz, unlike most other careers, anyone can hang out a shingle an claim to be competent. There is no formal education require, no extensive testing.

Most consumers do not mind paying for a skilled tradesman. The problem is that unlike careers requiring extensive education, testing and vetting before being sent out to assail the public, there are very few ways to discern a skilled tradesman from an moron who simply thinks he is a skilled tradesman.

As I said, If I were a skilled tradesman I would want to run all the none skilled guys out of town on a rail. Those people hurt all contractors.



Last edited by consumer on Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:39 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 37

RestoWood wrote :
> What a mess.... People make mistakes and then some people are too proud to
> make it right... Get your money back for the recoat and then find another
> contractor to do the work. It seems as though you are out to kill this guy.


Restowood What? I am entitled to damages. This floor did not need a sand a recoat until the moron contractor ruined it. If you think that is unreasonable, you will soon get yourself in trouble with someone who knows their rights and really goes after you for a pound or ten of your flesh.


> Give the kid a break for
> lack of experience or whatever it was that caused the situation. It seems
> as though your intentions are not to "make it right".


Oh brother, restowood, are you another person who has not bothered to read the thread or perhaps simply can not understand what has been written? I am blonde, but trust me that does not automatically equate to "dumb blonde".

Personally, after being repeatedly attacked by some of the contractors here, now I really want a pound a flesh out of this guy. Where as before I came here, I had declined to press criminal charges. Now after being attacked here, I think I need to do that, to protect other consumers from the moron who ruined my floors and has caused be so much inconvenience. Mainly because I am getting a good glimpse of the nasty, blaming unskilled tradesman here an how they truly feel about their clients.

> Personally I walked off a job because of an unreasonable homeowner who then
> filed suit against me. Her dogs pissed on the floor I was sanding 4 times
> while I was there. After kindly asking twice for her to remove the pets and
> nothing happening I left. She filed a suit wanting me to pay for damages to
> her floor..... WHAT A JOKE..

Actually, I agree your homeowner was wrong. Sorry you had to deal with that. I hope you got an attorney and counter-sued her for slander.

> I think you are being quite unreasonable in the situation. Just consider
> this a lesson learned and move on. Find a contractor who makes it work and
> then stick with them. I know alot of guys that do floors and have reviews
> on Angies list. Maybe you should have done more homework? Did you ask for
> references?


Restowood, I am sure all incompetent contractors would love to see all the consumer they screwed simply move on. The laws are changing, though, making it easier to sue and win. To bad for anyone that's incompetent?

I did my homework, There is not much one can do about someone who misrepresents their skills. BTW: I have heard plenty of complaints about angie's list contractors. It seems too many friends and family post those favorable reviews and they can not be trusted. I would never use angie's list.

Unfortunately, I just moved to this area from another state, ( northern Texas to be exact.) and don't know enough people to get referrals.

The sad fact is there are just too many incompetent contractors out there. Some contractors, according to my attorney hang out their shingle and become contractors, because they simply can't hold real jobs. A large percentage of independent contractors also have criminal records.

Again, as I said there is a huge difference between a skilled tradesman and a moron who simply hangs out a shingle and claims to be a contractor.

The good contractors should be grateful that consumers out the losers and put them out of business.



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Tim CF

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:52 pm 



Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:22 am
Posts: 2295
Location: Quakertown, PA

Tim CF wrote :
> This "kid" is just giving the Pros a bad rep.
> Shows how anybody can get some flooring equipment and butcher a nice
> hardwood floor.
I think I said that about 3 pages ago.
Time to give this thread a rest...............................



Floorlayer2007

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:14 pm 



Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:39 am
Posts: 4777
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Looking back through history, a 3-fold settlement is not entirely out of the question for restitution.

Example is given by the ancient Jews who lived quite well under the Mosaic Law for about 1,500 years. As regards stealing, the Law said "If there should be unmistakably found in his hand what was stolen, from bull to ass and to sheep, alive, he is to make double compensation.” This included money or other articles as well as animals. If the thief had slaughtered the stolen animal or had sold it, then he would have to make heavier compensation, namely, for a bull five of the herd, and for a sheep four of the flock. (Ex 22:1, 3, 4, 7) This law had the effect of protecting and recompensing the victim and made the thief work to pay for his crime, rather than sit in a jail as an economic burden to the community, with the victim uncompensated for his loss. (Not trying to get churchy. Just a historic example.)

Another way to look at this is . . . usually a screen & recoat would be about a $1.00 per square foot. But a complete sand & finish averages $3.00. Right there is your 3-times compensation. Not unreasonable at all.

I'm just saying . . .

Charlie in Arizona



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Dale Rosilio

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:39 pm 



Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 652

Chuckster,

Whille I agree, there is a burden of proof placed upon the claimant to show that this contractors actions were willful in nature. There is also the fact that we have but ONE side of this story to base any opinion on.....Let it go.



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Floorlayer2007

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:45 pm 



Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:39 am
Posts: 4777
Location: Prescott, Arizona

It's ok, Dale.

Charlie in Arizona



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Dale Rosilio

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:46 pm 



Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 652

Chuckster,

I know and we already know where you are ;)



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:24 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 37

Floorlayer2007 wrote :
>>
> Another way to look at this is . . . usually a screen & recoat would be
> about a $1.00 per square foot. But a complete sand & finish averages
> $3.00. Right there is your 3-times compensation. Not unreasonable at all.
>
> I'm just saying . . .
>
> Charlie in Arizona




Floor layer, wherever you are, I have been given a choice buy various contractors to refinish floors the products thus far are. Vermeister, Bona traffic, bona mega with Booster or oil based polyurethane?

In my opinion, I think the floor guy should use the product he is comfortable with, so I don't want to ask anyone to use a product they don't normally use.

The people who are using the Bona products say it won't peel when they stirp the floors and use it, and they will put that in writing.

Which product would you use?



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jazzman

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:51 pm 



Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 12:14 am
Posts: 496
Location: western new york (think Buffalo)

Dana,

All of the products you listed will not peel if properly applied to a freshly sanded and prepared hardwood floor. It's your choice based on the contractor you choose.

While I sympathize that you had an unfortunate experience with 1 contractor, please don't make unfair accusations about the rest of us ("nasty, blaming unskilled tradesman here ","A large percentage of independent contractors also have criminal records."). You have traded barbs and comments with some individuals here, and yes, they have been nasty, rude, opinionated, and generally unpleasant. However, there is nothing in all that has been said that gives you any grounds to judge their competence or skill level (or even their customer service abilities).

This forum is aimed at and populated by trades people from around the globe. We have a bond here simply because of our chosen profession. We share information and experiences that we feel will benefit the other members. We all have opinions on something, and we have no problem expressing or defending them. I think a lot of us here have had similar bad experiences with a customer or two. We share our problems and hope to find solutions from the other members. Based on our experiences, we usually will take the side of the contractor - first, because that is the side that is usually presented here, and second, because many of us have had the same experience, thus creating a bond with the one sharing. Since you deal with the public in your line of work, I'm sure you can understand the need for a place to come and unload when you have had a difficult or challenging customer. Some of us here are very quick to defend those they see as "brothers", because there are too many other people who are too quick to judge someone with out having all the facts available.

In the end, the only thing we can offer you here is opinions and they really aren't worth a whole lot - in fact, they are free. You are getting what you paid for on this site.

John

p.s. - I have great reviews on Angies list, and they are generated by my satisfied customers.



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:16 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 37

-



Last edited by consumer on Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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biz

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:22 pm 



Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:51 pm
Posts: 309

What's objectively right or wrong should have little if anything to do with written law. Was it right that people got arrested during prohibition only for it to be repealed some time later? Many laws are total bullshit and this is one of 'em. If some prick lawyer hadn't put that idea into your head you wouldn't think that it's right based solely on "the law". (as if "the law" is the word of god for lack of a better phrase)

None of us knows the true story here but I have a theory on what happened. You think your floor guy has been coating floors for customers that have all failed and now he "messed with the wrong gal" so to speak. What most likely happened was the guy had never experienced a failure until he coated your floors. As much as you'd like us to stop offering such a "risky" service to our customers, the rate of failures on recoats is very small. (this is based on my own experience, I have no real statistics) Most likely this guy coated your floors with good intentions trying to provide a good service as we all do, not what you keep suggesting-- that he intentionally ripped you off knowing that his coat would peel. The ability to recoat a finished floor is one of the most important aspects of our business. A properly maintained floor coated every 5-10 years or so should never need sanding again. That's why we stress to our customers to be careful with what cleaners they use(btw would you care to respond to my last post in this thread? lol), there's even a blurb on my website about it. We've already established that this guy's inexperience with his recoat procedure, management of customer expectations and damage control skills has caused a big problem here, so let's not blame recoating itself. I don't believe this guy was trying to hoodwink you at all. It's the potential customer's job to make sure whoever they're considering to hire is competent, and the contractor's job to make sure information to confirm said competency is available-- website, references, even videos on youtube or "other sites"(lol). You don't have to have lived somewhere for any amount of time or know a lot of people in your area to request references from a contractor you're considering to hire. Not that talking to any of this guy's references would have prevented this problem... the point is there are ways to determine the competency of a contractor, and believing one's sales spiel isn't one of them.

My hope is that you get a judgement against this guy's easily absolvable business and nothing more. At which point someone will have to pay the attorney's fees. I wonder who??? lol You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip after all.

I resanded a job a few months ago where they asked a cabinet guy to repair the floor in one area then coat the whole thing. Well my theory is that this guy didn't even screen it, let alone deep clean it. And by the looks of all the hairs and debris in the coat I doubt he vac'd it either. He also forgot to put the cats outside so there's little cat prints in the finish lol. The weird thing is these people kept defending the guy the whole time. I guess they thought it was their fault for having someone step outside their comfort zone and do something he had no business doing. Different situation of course, but same outcome(flooring wise, not bullshit litigation wise).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgeL8jjOmGs

And where are Bill and Paul with the banstick and the lockstick?



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consumer

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:28 pm 



Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:32 pm
Posts: 37

jazzman wrote :
> Dana
> While I sympathize that you had an unfortunate experience with 1
> contractor, please don't make unfair accusations about the rest of us
> ("nasty, blaming unskilled tradesman here ","A large
> percentage of independent contractors also have criminal records.").

John: A fact is a fact. The statement is a fact. Where as the comments that I am a liar are speculative.

The people responding to my posts should only be responding to the facts presented. They should not be speculating about whether or not they are true. Because if they ain't true, I ain't gonna' win in court. So speculation is rude and not productive or pertinent.

Sadly, the fact is that a large percentage of INDEPENDENT contractors DEFINITIVELY DO have criminal records. A large company vets employees and is responsible for their work AND BACKGROUND CHECKS. An independent contractor is vetted by no one.

I am sure you don't want to hear that but a wee bit of research will show it to be a fact.

> You have traded barbs and comments with some individuals here, and yes,
> they have been nasty, rude, opinionated, and generally unpleasant. However,
> there is nothing in all that has been said that gives you any grounds to
> judge their competence or skill level (or even their customer service
> abilities).

John, actually, their behavior speaks to their lack of customer service skills. People judge others by their behavior and the company they keep.

That's basic PR 101. Anyone who does not know that has just proven that they lack basic customer relations skills. Don't like that thought. Then do something about it, instead of sniveling and making excuses.

You are right, though, that my opinion of their skills is speculative. Too bad. If you can dish than you darn well better be able to take it. I am taking it.

There were a number of legitimately nice guys here. But the RUDE guys here need to pull up their big boy diapers and stop whining, or trying to shoo people off the board when they get barbed back by the little woman.

> This forum is aimed at and populated by trades people from around the
> globe. We have a bond here simply because of our chosen profession. We
> share information and experiences that we feel will benefit the other
> members. We all have opinions on something, and we have no problem
> expressing or defending them. I think a lot of us here have had similar bad
> experiences with a customer or two. We share our problems and hope to find
> solutions from the other members. Based on our experiences, we usually will
> take the side of the contractor - first, because that is the side that is
> usually presented here, and second, because many of us have had the same
> experience, thus creating a bond with the one sharing. Since you deal with
> the public in your line of work, I'm sure you can understand the need for a
> place to come and unload when you have had a difficult or challenging
> customer. Some of us here are very quick to defend those they see as
> "brothers", because there are too many other people who are too
> quick to judge someone with out having all the facts available.


Well, John then why not make it a membership only website closed to consumers? I understand about brotherhoods and they are usually closed to outsiders. If this is a brotherhood......close it to consumers.

The way it appears now.....It seems this is just a place to bate consumers. It appears to be place where contractors pretend to be good guys offering advice to unsuspecting consumers, when they are really making wise ass comments about the consumer being a Moron, behind the scenes or posting posts with double ententes, all the while pretending to want to help the consumer.

The backhanded insulting remarks here by some contractors has not gone over my head. Like I said. I may be blonde but..........

Or, perhaps your little venus fly trap of a brotherhood is just too much fun when it catches a defenseless fly.

> > In the end, the only thing we can offer you here is opinions and they
> really aren't worth a whole lot - in fact, they are free. You are getting
> what you paid for on this site.

Obviously this is a place to get opinions, John. Is that a surprise to you? Again, if you don't want to offer opinions to consumers than do not open the site to unwary consumers. Tell the truth. In another thread here, one of your brothers suggested throwing a brick through the homeowner's house due to a quality dispute. Is that how your brothers behave. Again, people judge you buy the company you keep, as they should. That is just basic stuff. Didn't your mom tell you that?

As for free advice not being worth anything.....Well, almost all of the best advice I have gotten throughout life has been free. Sorry that you have to pay people to give you advice that you can rely on, but the folks I know are honest and straightforward and do not hesitate to offer constructive advice. My friends and acquaintances freely share their acquired knowledge.

In fact, I think advice that someone charges for without willingness to deliver anything is usually the worst advice. Like the phony advice the lunatic who did my floors gave me, and the fibs he told just to get the job.

> p.s. - I have great reviews on Angies list, and they are generated by my
> satisfied customers.

Well, John, Angie's list is all about opinions, That's why your logic that, an opinion isn't worth much, is kinda' surprising to me.

Nevertheless a review on Angie's list ain't worth much, even if you have to pay.

A quick five second google search will pull up a ton of complaints about Angie's list, and a ton of explanations about why the site's reviews and the site itself should not be trusted.

The fact that a contractor is on angie's list does not mean he is competent or will stand by his work.

Stuff, happens, people are human, but a contractor needs to man up and stand behind his work, and if he screws up an apology for the inconvenience to the consumer is in order. Basic consumer relations 101......if ya' screw up and cause an inconvenience you need to make it up to the consumer. I don't see that suggestion coming from any of the rude contractors here who I have lambasted.

At this point I don't even care about money, as some here seem to be implying

I want the guy who did my floor out of business. I want him to declare bankruptcy. At this point, I don't even care if I recoup the original fee for the floor or attorney fees. I want this guy out of business.

Why?

Because the rude guys here have shown me what your brotherhood is all about and I feel totally vindicated in protecting the rest of the public from the guy who did my floors. I am on a crusade in fact, at this point, thanks to being enlightened by some of the rude contractors here.

Don't like that? Well than all ya' gotta' do is do the job right the first time, of if ya' screw up.... fix it.

'cause, there are people out there who are a lot worse than I will be about going after a pound of flesh. Some people can get really ornery and vindictive. If you get wise ass, they get even more ornery and vindictive.

There are some who a pound a flesh will simply not be enough. They won't stop until the contractor is totally ruined and will never work again. You never know who you are dealing with, and maybe you will get lucky and never run into someone who is in a position to ruin you and your future. Are you willing to flirt with that possibility?

If you and some of your ruder brethren here keep making excuses for shoddy work, you and they will eventually run into someone who is a lot meaner than I can ever hope to be.

And so be it!



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jazzman

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:57 pm 



Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 12:14 am
Posts: 496
Location: western new york (think Buffalo)

Dana,

I'm sorry that you misunderstood my post. I am not trying to defend rude and angry people, only trying to get you to see things from their perspective. By the way, we are not all like that. I have not been rude or spoken with any malice toward you.

As far as this site is concerned, you have to look no further than the banner at the top of the page - "SERVING WOOD FLOORING PROFESSIONALS ONLINE SINCE 1997". This site is aimed to the professionals - not the homeowner. This is not to say that you are unwelcome here, but that things are presented here from our point of view. In fairness to all, you have to admit that there is always more than one point of view on any given subject.

I wish you the best of luck on flooring problem and hope that you have a just and equitable outcome (although it may not be the results you desire).

John



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twaeker

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:24 am 



Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:28 am
Posts: 53

consumer wrote :
> jazzman wrote :
> > Dana
> > While I sympathize that you had an unfortunate experience with 1
> > contractor, please don't make unfair accusations about the rest of us
> > ("nasty, blaming unskilled tradesman here ","A large
> > percentage of independent contractors also have criminal records.").
>
> John: A fact is a fact. The statement is a fact. Where as the comments that I am a
> liar are speculative.
>
> The people responding to my posts should only be responding to the facts presented.
> They should not be speculating about whether or not they are true. Because if they
> ain't true, I ain't gonna' win in court. So speculation is rude and not productive
> or pertinent.
>
> Sadly, the fact is that a large percentage of INDEPENDENT contractors DEFINITIVELY DO
> have criminal records. A large company vets employees and is responsible for their
> work AND BACKGROUND CHECKS. An independent contractor is vetted by no one.
>
> I am sure you don't want to hear that but a wee bit of research will show it to be a
> fact.
>
> > You have traded barbs and comments with some individuals here, and yes,
> > they have been nasty, rude, opinionated, and generally unpleasant. However,
> > there is nothing in all that has been said that gives you any grounds to
> > judge their competence or skill level (or even their customer service
> > abilities).
>
> John, actually, their behavior speaks to their lack of customer service skills.
> People judge others by their behavior and the company they keep.
>
> That's basic PR 101. Anyone who does not know that has just proven that they lack
> basic customer relations skills. Don't like that thought. Then do something about
> it, instead of sniveling and making excuses.
>
> You are right, though, that my opinion of their skills is speculative. Too bad. If
> you can dish than you darn well better be able to take it. I am taking it.
>
> There were a number of legitimately nice guys here. But the RUDE guys here need to
> pull up their big boy diapers and stop whining, or trying to shoo people off the
> board when they get barbed back by the little woman.
>
> > This forum is aimed at and populated by trades people from around the
> > globe. We have a bond here simply because of our chosen profession. We
> > share information and experiences that we feel will benefit the other
> > members. We all have opinions on something, and we have no problem
> > expressing or defending them. I think a lot of us here have had similar bad
> > experiences with a customer or two. We share our problems and hope to find
> > solutions from the other members. Based on our experiences, we usually will
> > take the side of the contractor - first, because that is the side that is
> > usually presented here, and second, because many of us have had the same
> > experience, thus creating a bond with the one sharing. Since you deal with
> > the public in your line of work, I'm sure you can understand the need for a
> > place to come and unload when you have had a difficult or challenging
> > customer. Some of us here are very quick to defend those they see as
> > "brothers", because there are too many other people who are too
> > quick to judge someone with out having all the facts available.
>
>
> Well, John then why not make it a membership only website closed to consumers? I
> understand about brotherhoods and they are usually closed to outsiders. If this is a
> brotherhood......close it to consumers.
>
> The way it appears now.....It seems this is just a place to bate consumers. It
> appears to be place where contractors pretend to be good guys offering advice to
> unsuspecting consumers, when they are really making wise ass comments about the
> consumer being a Moron, behind the scenes or posting posts with double ententes, all
> the while pretending to want to help the consumer.
>
> The backhanded insulting remarks here by some contractors has not gone over my head.
> Like I said. I may be blonde but..........
>
> Or, perhaps your little venus fly trap of a brotherhood is just too much fun when it
> catches a defenseless fly.
>
> > > In the end, the only thing we can offer you here is opinions and they
> > really aren't worth a whole lot - in fact, they are free. You are getting
> > what you paid for on this site.
>
> Obviously this is a place to get opinions, John. Is that a surprise to you?
> Again, if you don't want to offer opinions to consumers than do not open the site to
> unwary consumers. Tell the truth. In another thread here, one of your brothers
> suggested throwing a brick through the homeowner's house due to a quality dispute.
> Is that how your brothers behave. Again, people judge you buy the company you keep,
> as they should. That is just basic stuff. Didn't your mom tell you that?
>
> As for free advice not being worth anything.....Well, almost all of the best advice I
> have gotten throughout life has been free. Sorry that you have to pay people to
> give you advice that you can rely on, but the folks I know are honest and
> straightforward and do not hesitate to offer constructive advice. My friends and
> acquaintances freely share their acquired knowledge.
>
> In fact, I think advice that someone charges for without willingness to deliver
> anything is usually the worst advice. Like the phony advice the lunatic who did my
> floors gave me, and the fibs he told just to get the job.
>
> > p.s. - I have great reviews on Angies list, and they are generated by my
> > satisfied customers.
>
> Well, John, Angie's list is all about opinions, That's why your logic that, an
> opinion isn't worth much, is kinda' surprising to me.
>
> Nevertheless a review on Angie's list ain't worth much, even if you have to pay.
>
> A quick five second google search will pull up a ton of complaints about Angie's
> list, and a ton of explanations about why the site's reviews and the site itself
> should not be trusted.
>
> The fact that a contractor is on angie's list does not mean he is competent or will
> stand by his work.
>
> Stuff, happens, people are human, but a contractor needs to man up and stand behind
> his work, and if he screws up an apology for the inconvenience to the consumer is in
> order. Basic consumer relations 101......if ya' screw up and cause an inconvenience
> you need to make it up to the consumer. I don't see that suggestion coming from any
> of the rude contractors here who I have lambasted.
>
> At this point I don't even care about money, as some here seem to be implying
>
> I want the guy who did my floor out of business. I want him to declare bankruptcy.
> At this point, I don't even care if I recoup the original fee for the floor or
> attorney fees. I want this guy out of business.
>
> Why?
>
> Because the rude guys here have shown me what your brotherhood is all about and I
> feel totally vindicated in protecting the rest of the public from the guy who did my
> floors. I am on a crusade in fact, at this point, thanks to being enlightened by
> some of the rude contractors here.
>
> Don't like that? Well than all ya' gotta' do is do the job right the first time, of
> if ya' screw up.... fix it.
>
> 'cause, there are people out there who are a lot worse than I will be about going
> after a pound of flesh. Some people can get really ornery and vindictive. If you
> get wise ass, they get even more ornery and vindictive.
>
> There are some who a pound a flesh will simply not be enough. They won't stop until
> the contractor is totally ruined and will never work again. You never know who you
> are dealing with, and maybe you will get lucky and never run into someone who is in a
> position to ruin you and your future. Are you willing to flirt with that
> possibility?
>
> If you and some of your ruder brethren here keep making excuses for shoddy work, you
> and they will eventually run into someone who is a lot meaner than I can ever hope to
> be.
>
> And so be it!



Are you by any chance single?



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8

Tim CF

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:14 am 



Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:22 am
Posts: 2295
Location: Quakertown, PA

What a wild ride it has been!
OK fellow floormasters, I have sat back patiently and watched you few make an ass of yourselfs.
I actually am one contractor who looked at her floors. Surprise!
The area in question was only 567ft not 1200sq. as the consumer has stated. Foyer, living room, dinning room, kitchen.
Sanded on site, stained Sedona red. Oil poly used for the original coats.
The first thing I said when I entered was, He coated with waterbase.
I saw lap marks, obvious pull lines around the perimeter. Crap in the corners.
Dana "not her real name" showed me the peeling area's. I knelt down and I proceeded to pull off finish with my fingernail.
On closer inspection, I observed WLS in a few boards in the kitchen.
The floor looked good as in not damaged or worn, so If I was the contractor and had a $1200 job, yes it would have been easy money. So the "kid" charged her $1200 as is an astounding $2.00+ per square foot.
Should Dana go for triple damages? I don't think it is warranted. But the previous contractor should pay for a complete resand.

It has been quite amusing to follow the ranting of a few "pro's"



Last edited by Tim CF on Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.


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hbrickman

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:32 am 



Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:26 pm
Posts: 800
Location: Brickman Consulting-Massachusetts

The sign reads, "Please don't tease the Grizzly Bears." But some people just can't help themselves. Bill, I hope that you have been enjoying this exchange.



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Crowsflooring

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:51 am 



Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:43 pm
Posts: 347

bill lock the post enough has been said



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Floorlayer2007

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:59 am 



Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:39 am
Posts: 4777
Location: Prescott, Arizona

Consumer:

All said and done, you've presented your side and I have to believe that you're telling the truth. Even if it was only a fictitious scenario (is that redundant?), then you have a case. The guys here on this site are probably the best in the world in our trade. Even if you've pushed a few buttons, you've a right to post without ridicule. You've tested all of our professional/social/communication skills.

Keep us informed as to how it works out for you. It's like all intestinal problems . . . They all work out in the end.

Charlie in Arizona



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Paul Mierzejewski

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:09 am 



Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:51 pm
Posts: 1648
Location: Central Connecticut

Consumer
This thread will be locked sometime today. I think all have given their opinions.
Thanks,
Paul Mierzejewski Site Moderator



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Dale Rosilio

 Post subject: Re: bona traffic peeling

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:14 am 



Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 652

Tsk, Tsk... now daddy's taking the T-bird away...:(



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That outa be some good reading this weekend.  I remember KevinD chiming in thats the last time I read it. Was there anything more exciting about the thread?
It's not really complete, when google cache'd some of these pages they didn't have all the replies yet but more and more of it shows up every day.

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travel and holiday resource

A new website (blog) directed towards travel and saving money while traveling has been launched. icruise.us will focus on cruises, but will also have lots of content about global travel and how to save money while traveling in style. More destinations coming soon.

icruise.us

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Flooring

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